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Old 17th November 2008, 04:56 PM   #1
Jenny Wilson
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marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

Bedford Community Family Trust organised a "Hope for marriage" day on Saturday. One of the speakers was MP for NE Bedfordshire Alistair Burt who is a firm believer that marriage benefits society in all sorts of ways but it was his comments in the discussion time that really hit me.

How do we get the message across? What we need to do is bring in the NGOs to give the message as the experts so that politicians can disengage slightly, the political shutters will be removed then from between the parties to look at the actual issues involved

comments please
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Old 1st February 2009, 01:58 AM   #2
Hilary
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

As someone who lives on the other side of the world and in a different culture I am a bit bemused. What have NGOs got to do with marriage? And why would they help?

I think it has to be more grass roots than experts. It needs to be modelled by those of us who value it. We need to show how it benefits us and not be embarrassed about things not being perfect.

We also have to wrestle the conversation of those who equate marriage with gay bashing as in "legalising gay relationships destroy families" a logic I have never been able to fathom.

We need, in my mind, to be respectful of everyone in a marriage type relationship of commitment, honour, friendship and support even if they haven't been through a marriage ceremony. The importance is the preparedness to be there for each other, to encourage each other to grow into the whole person they can be, to love, cherish and support in good times and the difficult times.

Does England have the equivalent of Oprah? These are the people we need to get to promote, I would have thought.
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Old 3rd February 2009, 03:38 PM   #3
Dave
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

Hi Hilary

Well I certainly agree that we need to get high profile people in the media onboard, though sadly we don't have an "Oprah" here in UK.

Where are you from btw?? In the US of course there is lots of government work through the "Healty Marriage Initiative" and there has been quite a bit of suport in Australia through AIFS.

I don't disagree with you on the personal stuff of "living it" either - just think we need both private and public support for marriage her ein UK right now

Dave
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Old 15th February 2009, 10:35 PM   #4
Ageing Grace
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

Hilary, our politicians are forever trying to influence family life & education - to cut a predictable story down to its obvious essentials: the polls tell them they're out of touch with everyday life, so they commission some more research about everyday life. Then they use this to create 'family' NGOs, launch 'family' election platforms, and to introduce 'family' legislation.

My opinion on all this is doubtless clear - but Jenny's right, in that the NGOs inform policy as well as public opinion, and channel the budgets.

The initiatives that look sound to me - like parenting courses, relationship & marriage education, better creche provision, more emotional/psychological assistance, babycare vouchers and so forth - are woolly & easily subverted: either they don't get off the ground or they're hijacked by single-agenda NGOs.

I don't know whether it's better in other countries (naturally, each has its strengths & weaknesses). Just possibly, our legendarily free press makes such frustrating processes somewhat more visible. In any case, Jenny's question is very valid - in the UK at least.

It could be rephrased: "How do we persuade governments to support marriage and families?" But that's an age-old question, and has been subverted as many times as it's been answered ...
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Old 18th February 2009, 05:55 PM   #5
Raymond
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

This government tends to reward irresponsibilty I think. It appears that the quickest way to get housed for intance is to have a child out of wedlock. In any area the responsible will be watched to make sure they are paying the right taxes etc. Marriage is a part of this and this government have gradually whittled away all the financial incentives to be married, not that we got married for them.

I visit youth prison once or twice a month and I can say that nearly 100% of inmates have no proper relationship with a father. Father is just a fella there once but now drifting around. I know that one cannot force a stable relationship but a recognition of the responsibility taken on would be a boost. Stable families must be saving the taxpayer billions. Obviously more help should be given to those in marriages, especially when they are going though a problem like many on here are.

Raymond
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Old 4th March 2009, 11:10 PM   #6
Ageing Grace
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

Raymond, I understand your vested interest in the concept of a father - and no-one could disagree that a stable, loving family (nuclear or extended) is the best possible grounding for tomorrow's adults.

However, governments cannot force stability or loving on their populations.

I posted in Surd's thread, about the changes in marriage that have occurred since the Sixties. Although what we now have is far from perfect: we are at least free of the legal & financial controls that made each home a private theatre, where horrible tragedies could be played uninterrupted as well as happy tales.

In the many reviews of family policy that took place from 1960-1980, the word "control" was used over and over. There is no doubt that family law, then, was implemented as a method of social & financial control - essentially, controlling the workforce.

I am amazed that so many people today imagine it's possible to control marital relations, in a helpful way, through law. What would you propose - that uncaring and selfish spouses be tried in court??!

The first stages of divorce liberalisation did, indeed, require the couple to air their grievances in court. The only people to benefit from that were lawyers! The 'automatic' divorce, after a cooling period, was introduced precisely as a response to the long-drawn-out (and expensive) damage created by those first attempts at 'reduced' legal control of marriage.

Mine is the only vote in Dave's thread, for government "picking up the pieces". Dave didn't include an option for a government role as educator, which would be my preference. After all, what are we forum members here doing, if not learning?

I think we'd gain more from improved relationship skills, and better-managed expectations, than from a swathe of legislation - which could never alter human behaviour.

AG
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Old 1st April 2009, 01:53 AM   #7
rppearso
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

What do you mean by "better managed expectations"?

I think there needs to be consistant education that is standardized, just like an engineering ciriculum or course syllabus. In order to get a marriage license you have to take a rigourus course (not some touchy feely phony class). There needs to be a book with most concivable issues, like maybe a couple lives in one area with both their familys what if the husband gets a job in another state how will she deal with that? Any and all deal breakers should be identified upfront. It is critical to get "marriage advice" out of the hands of Joe the grocery store worker and into fomalized classes taught by professionals (ie not dr laura lol, who says single parents shouldent get remarried or have sex until the kid is 18, I wonder if she still believes in santa clause). Just because betty sue got pissy with her husband when he had to take a job out of state away from her mommy and daddy does not mean she is right and her advice needs to be cut off, gossip from low IQ individuals is detrimental to society.

Also reducing the divorce rate from 50% would be a good start, before granting a divorce decree each individual should be required to fill out a detailed form as to why the marraige broke down (in addition to the financial stuff) and information should be presented in the text that is part of the marriage class, there is way to much pie in the sky teaching when it comes to marriage. Questions as frank as are you willing to give your husband a BJ/rim and swallow need to be asked (if you get all pissed off and offended from that question and your soon to be husband likes that idea you just saved your self 2-10 years of misery, yeay and you can get back on craigslist and continue your search), are you willing to move away from your family if your husband is laid off and has to take a job elsewhere? Are you willing to entrust your husband with the finances as the head of household (head of household actually means something lol, it means you dont take the debit card and go buy purses without approval, if you married your husband you should trust him to be making good long term goals for the 2 of you). We have so many skewed ideas about marriage when the rubber meets the road its not even funny. I would even take it so far as to hook them up to a lie detector for certian critical questions to make sure they are not settling because they had a hard time finding someone.

There needs to be better catalysts for meeting people (craigslist is an awesome start) so people are not hooking up in bars because thats where the opposite sex is. I think churches should undertake this challenge but they never do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageing Grace View Post
Raymond, I understand your vested interest in the concept of a father - and no-one could disagree that a stable, loving family (nuclear or extended) is the best possible grounding for tomorrow's adults.

However, governments cannot force stability or loving on their populations.

I posted in Surd's thread, about the changes in marriage that have occurred since the Sixties. Although what we now have is far from perfect: we are at least free of the legal & financial controls that made each home a private theatre, where horrible tragedies could be played uninterrupted as well as happy tales.

In the many reviews of family policy that took place from 1960-1980, the word "control" was used over and over. There is no doubt that family law, then, was implemented as a method of social & financial control - essentially, controlling the workforce.

I am amazed that so many people today imagine it's possible to control marital relations, in a helpful way, through law. What would you propose - that uncaring and selfish spouses be tried in court??!

The first stages of divorce liberalisation did, indeed, require the couple to air their grievances in court. The only people to benefit from that were lawyers! The 'automatic' divorce, after a cooling period, was introduced precisely as a response to the long-drawn-out (and expensive) damage created by those first attempts at 'reduced' legal control of marriage.

Mine is the only vote in Dave's thread, for government "picking up the pieces". Dave didn't include an option for a government role as educator, which would be my preference. After all, what are we forum members here doing, if not learning?

I think we'd gain more from improved relationship skills, and better-managed expectations, than from a swathe of legislation - which could never alter human behaviour.

AG

Last edited by rppearso; 1st April 2009 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 1st April 2009, 01:02 PM   #8
Raymond
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

AG I am not saying to control anything. I was merely pointing out instances where the lack of a father had dire consequences on the wellbeing of the children. I think we have to see it as it as a society to improve it. Laws can only contain evil not produce good. I am aware of that.

ppearso I didn't know I got a reply on here. I will look at what you say.

Raymond
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Old 1st April 2009, 06:08 PM   #9
clockwork orange
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rppearso View Post
There needs to be a book with most concivable issues, .
There is - its called the Bible.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 08:41 AM   #10
rppearso
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

Actually no it does not, thanks for the sarcasm though. Also the problem is people like to cherry pick scripture, I notice not one post I have made where I have refered to 1 cor 7 has anyone backed me up. How can you call the bible a relationship tool when the very institution that believes in it cherry picks. I feel like I am fighting a loosing battle against prudishness, in fact im pretty sure I have lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clockwork orange View Post
There is - its called the Bible.

Last edited by rppearso; 2nd April 2009 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 10:22 PM   #11
Dave
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

Guys

This thread seems to be drifting off into a mire of pseudo-christian discussion of sexual practice - wayy off topic.

The original question was about how we migh change the general public perception that marriage is just the same as any other form of adult relationship (ie ignoring the fact that it's based on some really deep promises), and re-build the affection and respect in which it used to be held.

Dave
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Old 3rd April 2009, 01:58 AM   #12
rppearso
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Re: marriage is good, how do we get the message across?

The problem people see with marriage is the divorce rate is 50%. Its one thing to break up with a GF or BF but divorce is a paper intesive onerous legal process that is often times extremely expensive and can be as extreme as to put you into bankrupcy. I dont think the implications of divorce or the divorce rate are what God had planned but its the reality we have to deal with. People have a biological urge to have sex so thats not going to stop but people are going to think twice when they see there friend going through an expensive divorce and there friends spouse is dragging them through the mud (alimony, child support, unequal division of assets, lawyer fees, etc) after its all said and done some people walk away having to start there life over again, that scenario is becomming more and more common place (I have a couple of friends going through that exact scenario, lucky for me my divorce is amicable) and thats a pretty tall order when considering marriage, you want to make real sure your compatible with that person (dating, living together the whole nine yards for a very long period of time to make sure both parties are going to be happy), I hear about couples all the time that do the whole dating and dont have sex and get married and realize they have nothing in common in the bed room, it strains the relationship and the marriage fails. The flip side of that coin is they see there friends who are unhappily married and depressed and are avoiding divorce because of the above consequences but it is slowly sucking the life out of them (and this group since they are still married are part of the other 50%), if you did a study of what percentage are HAPPILY married it would be much lower, I would say 30-40% thats not very good odds. Thats why I said they should write a detailed book on why marriages failed and make a marriage class required to get a marriage licence.
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