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Old 23rd August 2007, 04:29 AM   #1
Robbie
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Done everything I know how to do..

I have written a gigantic rambling novel below, but rather than asking you to read the whole thing, I'll just pose my question (feel free to read the rest some night when you can't sleep):

I desperately feel like I need a divorce: I've been unable to convince, bargain, plead, or force(situationally, not physically!) my wife to live up to anything like equal responsibility. It's hurting me both emotionally and somewhat physically (because of my own tendency to get stressed about it), plus it's not good for my son, and I don't see it getting any better.

However, I don't feel like I can divorce: I have done my best to confirm there's no adultery, and she isn't an active threat to our son's physical health - just a barely-interested mom, and a completely non-present and "using" wife.

So at what time period of abdicating responsibilities, and at what level of physical and mental stress, do we think that God can forgive us for initiating a divorce? I HATE the idea of divorce, but I absolutely cannot carry this load by myself anymore. And, knowing that I'm leaning toward divorce, how can I stand before God and say "please forgive me...I know I'm about to sin, but I have to". That just doesn't sound right to my own ears.

Help.

The Loooong Story
---------------------
Over our 5-year marriage, I have tried as best as possible to solicit my wife's input on decisions, support her various needs and interests (career, hobbies, etc.), counsel her when she needs support, singlehandedly financially support her and my 3-year old, and not relegate her to being a "housewife", but instead, regardless of the hours I put in at work, be a 50% contributor at home.

I think I have painted myself into a corner, which I began to realize three years, but have been unable to correct. First, when she got pregnant (as planned by her and agreed to by me), I told her I'd take a higher-paying job (6-figures) in order to buy her some time and space to adjust to motherhood. I realized at a certain point that I was doing more financially than "supportively", so as I said, I started doing double-duty, so she wouldn't be alone in the household arena. In the meantime (while not working and barely maintaining the household) she also started putting our son into daycare, which I paid for while she "found herself" and also went through some post-partum depression. I wasn't happy about it, but I remained hopeful that this was just a valley.

When it became apparent the stay-at-home lifestyle wasn't working for her, I enlisted a lot of valuable contacts to help her find a job. She didn't call them back. I later helped her (not financially, but with time and energy) open a very small twice-a-week business based upon one of her hobbies. She got bored of that. Meanwhile, she became more resentful of me, for reasons I couldn't understand...I asked her..she wouldn't talk. I suggested marriage counseling at our church, and she left it to me to set it all up. Scheduling difficulties, my own miscommunication with the pastor, and no help from her made this not work out. I'd come home, sit 10 feet from her, and she wouldn't speak to me. Later, she said she felt like she gave up too much for me, because we'd moved from LA to Santa Barbara (which is a smaller town). Later, she found a 9-to-5, worked it for a few months, and then recanted and said she loved Santa Barbara, and wanted to find a way to live there (in the land of >$1,000,000 homes). We discussed that her tastes and interests exceeded our earning potential, so I encouraged her to pursue Law, which she'd talked about before. I supported her through that, when she was discouraged and struggling to get a good score. She got into a Law School in Pennsylvania, so I quit my job and we moved back to the East, which is also close to family...great! I talked in Church about how much of a blessing it was, which it still was, but it's being squandered...

I bought a house, we got our son into a new daycare, and I found a job (a 10-hour day, plus a 2+ hour daily commute). She complained that I was never around and that it was making life too hard for her, full-time school plus picking up and dropping off our son and putting him to bed. I explained that, as the sole wage-earner, holding the only adequate job I could find (plus honoring a contractual commitment), I was doing the best I could for the first year, plus paying for us to eat out constantly rather than her cooking, and wearing myself down with a very challenging job, commute, and home responsibilities. I also said I was getting terribly burned out, and that my struggles to get home at a decent hour were being met with absence, disregard, and/or continuing bitterness. I also hired a Martha Stewart-type of person to help us finish "moving in" and arranging the house, which was a mess; even with "Martha" around, she only grudingly participated, and then mainly when it came to buying new furniture. I suggested, asked, pleaded, and demanded that she try going part-time, because full-time was too much for the family, and our 2-year old was also suffering. She said no way. I took us to counseling. She said, in front of the counselor, that her law school was very demanding, and that doing well at law was more of a priority than family. I felt like a fool. A couple of months later, she said that she meant "just for now". Uh-huh. A couple of months later, she said she'd also have to put in heavy hours for the first few years of her job after school. As expected.

Later, during her 3-month summer internship, she tried to have our 2-year old stay with her mom 2.5 hours away - for the ENTIRE summer. She said since I was working and commuting so much, it would be rough on her to work her summer job and take care of our son. I put my foot down, and demanded that he stay with us. She relented, and found a way to make it work with babysitters - a compromise she resents that to this day. And although I work a lot of hours, I still spend nearly equal "non-quality", and far more "quality" time with our son...when I show up, she pretty much dumps him and goes either to the bedroom or out to a yoga class, etc.

We go months without sex. I went to a therapist. I took us to a marriage counselor. Nothing helped. I found us a church and she said she didn't like it...we discussed looknig for another one...later, she said she's not big into churches as a concept. Ooookay. I got hives twice in the last 1.5 years, and for a short while had high blood pressure. I'm in better health right now, although I'm currently stressed out over her constantly dropping off my son with her family, yet making excuses over trying to avoid my son seeing my family (who are Christian, mentally healthy, well-educated, and have bent over backwards to be nice to her)

Now, she's almost done with law school, and she has

1) resisted, relented, and then reneged on my request that once she starts her $140,000 job, that I take a 9-12 month sabbatical from work, to focus on recharging, focusing on our son and household, and figuring out my next career move which includes a specific idea about a flexible business to complement her anticipated heavy workload. My position is "If you don't want to anchor the household, then, fine - I'll do it. But I need to slow down a bit, because I'm killing myself here! And our son won't be 3 years old for long...he needs more than this." She says no way, "I didn't study this hard to go back to being a single-income household; you're unrealistic about the amount of parenting a child needs; you wouldn't be doing enough worthwhile things around the household"

2) Tried to get us to move to NYC. I have a problem with:
- raising a 3-year old in the big city, as opposed to the suburbs
- selling a house we've barely owned 2 years in a bad market
- a high cost of living and the pressure that comes with it
- sacrificing further for someone who uses me
- her claiming she wants "a better support network to take care of our son" (which means - her words - "I'm going to be working hard, you're going to be working hard, so I want somewhere to drop off our kid"). I told her "no" (explanation, more explanation, followed by pleading, followed by yelling). We ended that conversation two weeks ago with her saying "okay, then I guess we'll stay here". Two nights ago, I overheard that she's still telling her future employer to "leave the New York offer open". Not entirely unexpected at this point.

I take full responsibility for allowing things to get this far out of hand. I also firmly believe that my priorities are properly aligned, and that I've done everything I can in terms of energy, money, honest and clear communication, and flexibility in terms of my role.

At this point, I'd like to pray for reconciliation, but I can't lie to God and say "I want this to work out". All I want now is peace and the ability to rear my son to the best of my/our ability. I will do it all alone if need be, but I can't be around her anymore. I feel like I'm totally stuck here, though, because I don't want to sin by divorcing her. Honestly, I sin plenty without that adding that to the mix. Over the last few months, I've been drinking more (slightly more than a drink per day, but that's a first for me), looking at porn, and flirting with another woman (and I know where that leads). So, while allowing the original problem to fester, I've started adding to it, although I'm working to quickly unentangle myself from all those hollow crutches. But my other concern is that, even if I do stay, I see myself either miserable, or developing some other self-defeating "coping" mechanisms. Until I address the core issue, I'm going nowhere good.

My fingers are tired, and I expect, so are your eyes and brain. Anyway, thanks for any thoughts, whether you write them or just think them.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 07:30 AM   #2
Rasalon
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Hey Robbie,

I have been a longtime lurker, but decided to register when I saw what you are going through. I am sorry to hear all that, and can sympathize, as I have been through something similar, except no children were involved.

Shortly before I got married, my wife had just started at a private college, studying engineering and we were living in an apartment. She went to school full time, and I worked to support both of us, as she didn't have the time to get a job while studying. We bought a house as she got tired of apartment living. I also did most of the stuff around the house, including cooking and cleaning. Initially she was studying towards a Bachelors, but decided to go on for a Masters, which I supported and encouraged.

As I traveled quite a bit for work, all went well, as she was able to join me on travel in between semesters: we traveled to most States and about 10 or 15 countries.

So the deal was after she graduated with her Masters and got a job, I would cut back to part time work and go back for my Masters.

If you are looking for a happy ending to all this, I suggest stop reading here.

Somehow through all this, resentment was building up on her part: that I traveled frequently for work, which allowed me to support her private education, the house, and for her to be able to travel when her schedule allowed. She resented the house that she had to solely maintain while I was on travel, working to support her private education, the house she wanted, and for her to be able to travel when her schedule allowed. You get the point.

She graduated with a Bachelor and Masters in engineering on May 28th, 2004. She left me and moved out on May 29th, 2004 without warning. I was left with the house payments and her school loans. 4 years of my life was wasted, as all the long hours I worked went towards her school and house, and afterwards I didn't even get to continue my education.

You have a child, so your situation is more difficult. I can't offer advice, only sympathy. Resentment is a difficult thing to work off, as I am still working on the resentment I feel towards her, over 3 years later.

As an aside, I have a theory that the time it takes to get over someone is equal to the amount of you spent with them. As an example, I met my ex-wife in February of 1999 and she left me in May of 2004. Therefore, I should finally be over her completely and my resentment worked out by August of 2009. Not sure if this is true, I will find out in 2 more years.

Wish you the best.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 01:04 PM   #3
Robbie
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

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Originally Posted by Rasalon View Post
Hey Robbie,
If you are looking for a happy ending to all this, I suggest stop reading here.
Thanks for sharing that...it eases the pressure a bit, knowing I'm sharing that load with you and others.

I see a walk-out on her part as a definite possible ending to this, although I wish, if it is destined to happen, it would happen sooner rather than later. I spoke to my mom about it, and she asked "Well, I wonder why she doesn't just leave you?" My answer was "I'm guessing that it's because I'm still of use to her."

Despite the many popular criticisms about men, many of us try so hard to do what we think is right that it backfires upon us - but I guess the same thing has happened to many women, so maybe we as men are due this type of heartbreak, ha, ha.... I hope you are able to heal from this, and continue to be the upstanding type of person you have been.

For my own part, I am just praying that whatever needs to happen to make this all work out positively(whatever that may be) happens soon - whether it happens to me, or whether I get spurred to make the decision - because it's wearing me out.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 02:38 PM   #4
Rasalon
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie View Post
For my own part, I am just praying that whatever needs to happen to make this all work out positively(whatever that may be) happens soon - whether it happens to me, or whether I get spurred to make the decision - because it's wearing me out.
You may need to make the decision yourself because as you can see from my past, if not, it may turn out she is just using you as well, and will discard you once you are of no more use. And all that does is increase the resentment you are building up.

I am a Christian as well, and although God did not intend for divorce, looking at some of Proverbs 31:

A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.
Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.
She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.

She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.


God also did not intend for you to be in the type of marriage you are in.


I initiated divorce proceedings after my wife left, and did not attempt to seek her out and try to work through this. Maybe I was angry, but I gave her 100% of my support while she studied, and she broke all the promises she made to me in return. It would have taken a long time to build up trust again, and there was no telling if this would happen again in the future.

Once again, I hope some of this helps and will help you come to a decision. Tough decision, I know. Your vision is probably clouded, like mine is, and you are rationalizing it with "Maybe once she finishes school, everything will get better. Maybe once she gets a job, everything will get better. Maybe once the kid starts school, everything will get better." Maybe it will, but you seem to at least see the warning signs.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 04:38 PM   #5
markus
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

What it boils down to Robbie is that you want to dump your wife because she wants a career like you
she wants to be able to make her own decisions - not have her every move controlled by you
How would you feel if you had to look after a 3 year old child all day , cook someone's meal and have one thrown up you every night whilst
wearing the fake man pleasing smile ?
If your priorities were truly aligned then you find a solution that didn't involve boning the secretary & quitting your family

Pause and imagine life in her shoes !
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Old 23rd August 2007, 06:04 PM   #6
Kate
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Markus, I think your response is rather unfair. Robbie has tried to support his wife by the sound of things and tried to sort things out with her.

Robbie, It may help to try and stand in your wife's shoes and try and see life as she sees it, if you haven't already done that. However I don't agree with much else that Markus has to say.

What comes over to me is that you and your wife have never really sat down and worked through your expectations for your marriage and family life together. From what you've written you seem to have different ideas about bringing up children, about what is important in life and where you want your marriage to go. I don't know what counselling has done for you, but it strikes me you need to find a way to discuss these things before you make any big decisions.

You could consider some more counselling or perhaps an enrichment programme where you can take your eyes off all the practical things in lfe and focus on what your marriage is all about. Why not have a look at the Smartmarriages site here. Something like Enrich, Re-foccus, or Marriage Encounter might be of value.

All the best

Kate
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Old 24th August 2007, 01:40 AM   #7
Robbie
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus View Post
What it boils down to Robbie is that you want to dump your wife because she wants a career like you
she wants to be able to make her own decisions - not have her every move controlled by you
How would you feel if you had to look after a 3 year old child all day , cook someone's meal and have one thrown up you every night whilst
wearing the fake man pleasing smile ?
If your priorities were truly aligned then you find a solution that didn't involve boning the secretary & quitting your family

Pause and imagine life in her shoes !
I do not control her decisions, and I have involved her in all of mine. I have asked her multiple times before taking - even responding to - each and every job opportunity, before every significant purchase, and every potential geographic move. I have moved across country for the benefit of her education and career. While I've put every dollar of my income into our joint account, on the occasions that she has had an income, she has put her income solely into her own personal account. I also found out today that she has run up her personal credit cards to $11K, and in two weeks, won't have the money to pay her next bill. She spends far more than I do upon herself, while I take care of all three of us.

She has seldom looked after our 3-year old all day, any day. He has been in 9-hour x 5-day a week daycare since the age of 3 months, even when she wasn't working. On weekdays, I typically get him up, shower and dress him, and take him to school; she typically picks him up; I get him ready for bed and read to him. Typically on the weekends, I spend 75% or more of the time with him. So out time and effort commitments, are skewed, if at all toward me.

She does not cook, and over 5 years of marriage, I can count on one hand the number of meals I have asked her to cook. I can estimate that she has cooked maybe 200 meals, and I have cooked maybe 100-150. For the last two or more years, I've been paying for the whole family to eat out, rather than ask for her to cook. However, I have repeatedly suggested that we both cook more often, and I've taken the lead on that.

I am not having sex with any woman, and have already stated that I've looked in the mirror and decided that my flirting is dangerous. So, even though I am extremely lonely at home, I am trying to perservere.

At every juncture, I have attempted to put myself into her shoes, and in fact, suggested multiple times that I take the reduced work role, so that she can pursue her career. She said no to this as well, because she doesn't find "the household and family" as a priority that either of us should pursue.

I have tried to find a solution, but have generally found her disinterested in counseling or lenthy discussions. In the months that we did go to counseling, I was conscious of always allowing her to speak first and at length, rather than trying to dominate any conversation.

I don't enjoy citing these things, because it makes it sound like I'm "keeping score". However, as you can tell, I've questioned and requestioned myself many, many times, in an attempt to be as objective as possible about what I am and am not contributing, and in every area I could see myself lacking, have tried to fill that in. And at this point, I'm truly overwhelmed.

markus, I understand the idea of "tough love", but insulting my general character based upon incorrect and/or limited information is neither constructive nor persuasive.

Last edited by Robbie; 24th August 2007 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 24th August 2007, 02:10 AM   #8
johnj
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Hey Robbie,

I think you want to save you marriage and this site has tought me alot. Spend time on you and your belife. I have only read the begining of your novel, had to stop. What if you were in the position of the rest of your friends. Read some threads.
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Old 24th August 2007, 02:29 AM   #9
Robbie
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate View Post
Markus, I think your response is rather unfair. Robbie has tried to support his wife by the sound of things and tried to sort things out with her.

Robbie, It may help to try and stand in your wife's shoes and try and see life as she sees it, if you haven't already done that. However I don't agree with much else that Markus has to say.

What comes over to me is that you and your wife have never really sat down and worked through your expectations for your marriage and family life together. From what you've written you seem to have different ideas about bringing up children, about what is important in life and where you want your marriage to go. I don't know what counselling has done for you, but it strikes me you need to find a way to discuss these things before you make any big decisions.

You could consider some more counselling or perhaps an enrichment programme where you can take your eyes off all the practical things in lfe and focus on what your marriage is all about. Why not have a look at the Smartmarriages site here. Something like Enrich, Re-foccus, or Marriage Encounter might be of value.

All the best

Kate
Kate,

I've scoured the link you sent me, and while we've been to counseling - and dicussed our opinions fo family, etc. - this looks a little different than anything I/we have previously seen or done. I'm going to talk about it with my wife this weekend.

Thanks very much!!!
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Old 24th August 2007, 02:55 AM   #10
Robbie
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnj View Post
Hey Robbie,

I think you want to save you marriage and this site has tought me alot. Spend time on you and your belife. I have only read the begining of your novel, had to stop. What if you were in the position of the rest of your friends. Read some threads.
Thanks, JohnJ. I agree; I've read about some amazing (painful and hopeful) situations described here, and will continue to try to learn. I appreciate your sentiments...I haven't given up yet...I just know I can't keep trying the same things I've been trying - I compare it to paddling faster and harder upstream, while still heading toward the waterfall...if our little canoe is going to make it, we need to change strategy.

I think I'm going to try to interest my wife in another round of counseling, based on the link from Kate. I'm also going to increase my prayers, because I do believe that God wants us to keep our vows. In the end, even if the situation devolves, I have to be able to say to myself and to God that I did every single thing I could possibly think of. All the constructive ideas I can get from others are welcome and helpful, and have already given me a measure of hope and solace!

In fact, even the negative attack has helped, because the criticisms it levels describe the type of person I am not, but could easily become. As imperfect as I am in many areas, I don't ever want anyone to be able to say those things about me, and have them be true. So it's just a reminder to get more focused and prayerful...my situation just goes to show that our absolute best worldly efforts are inadequate if we don't ask for and receive help from above.
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Old 24th August 2007, 03:44 AM   #11
johnj
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

keep paddleling but try to change your stroke. We can never be right just understood. I belive clarity has alot to explaine in my life.
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Old 24th August 2007, 10:33 AM   #12
markus
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Quote:
but insulting my general character based upon incorrect and/or limited information is neither constructive nor persuasive.
I based my opinion on a rather large post which has not one positive comment about your Wife/mother of your child
which leads me to believe that your not perfect yourself and that your ego and self image is too big for you to consider that you may be failing in anyway
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Old 24th August 2007, 04:01 PM   #13
Robbie
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus View Post
I based my opinion on a rather large post which has not one positive comment about your Wife/mother of your child
which leads me to believe that your not perfect yourself and that your ego and self image is too big for you to consider that you may be failing in anyway
That's a lot more specific and actionable, and you're absolutely right; that is something I need to to consider; I've been extremely upset and disappointed with her for such a long time now that I've villified her, and failed to realize that she does have good qualities, and in fact, there a whole lot of worse women and situations out there.

She is smart, pretty, and has a lot of ambition. She has a quirky sense of humor and extremely poor taste in movies, music, and TV shows rivaling my own (which makes her a rare find). She wants our son to go to the absolute best schools and have access to tons of activities, classes, training - tennis, golf, equestrian, etc. Her family (mother, grandmother) are absolutely awesome - they are the only people beyond my own mother and sister in whom I would place nearly absolute trust in looking after my son.

All this said, I feel like two possibly "great" people are squeezing out our own son, in terms of time and energy. Plus, I'm getting buried under work, household responsibilities, and a lack of "thanks", help, or compassion - only complaints. While she is plowing ahead with her various interests and agendas, she is leaving a tremendous amount of new burdens on my shoulders, and regardless of what I say, she refuses to listen, look back, or help. So, you're right - she's not an evil person. We just have different goals and/or perspectives, and have - in my opinion only - been unequally sharing the myriad responsibilities of the household, family and relationship for a very long time.

Thanks for rephrasing or clarifying in a way that I am able to process and use. This helps a lot, because framing the question and the specific problem is the first step towards getting any resolution. I'm also aware that she has complaints about me, which is the reason that she doesn't talk to me and always complains about me. She complains that I have unrealistic expectations about the amount of time and energy that our son merits, when weighed against generating income. She complains that I am without energy and not romantic, and that I think she's a bad mother and wife. She also says I'm cheap. And that I'm inflexible.

My own perception, clouded though it may be, is that I'm trying to shift focus more toward the family. I am very stubborn about it because I feel (as long as you're not struggling to survive) children need time attention. However, I thought I was being flexible, by saying that if she doesn't want to do it, I'll do it - and I'm not talking about not working at all...I just mean that instead of working 60+ hour weeks, which is what I've had to do to support our house and her spending habits, I'd work probably my same job, but scale back to 30 to 40 hours a week, leaving time for things like cooking, cleaning, and addressing the random things that pop up with our son (school trips, hospital, school closure days, etc.). Honestly, if she could find it in her heart or financial plan to just let me slow down and do that, I'd feel like the 4+ years of me supporting her in every way I could were being requited. I also believe I'd have a lot more time and energy to be romantic if I knew our son was well taken care of and if I had slight breathing room from my history of high-pressure jobs. I don't think that we have to give our son a back seat, so that our combined household income will rise to $300K or more annually. And I really don't think that makes me cheap; it just makes me neutral about that level of financial success, and more interested in the family core. I personally believe that $200 to $250K annually is plenty, especially in Pennsylvania (as opposed to California or New York).

She doesn't. So far, she has vehemently said no, and implied that I'm, essentially, a lazy dreamer for even suggesting such a plan. She says also that after-school programs and her mother can pick up the slack for raising our son. It's tough, after a 60+ hour workweek, to be labeled lazy, or a dreamer, to be told that she has no plan or interest in helping to support me financially in the way I've done for her, and to be told that spending time with our son is going to have to take a back seat to money and ambition. That's the specific part - not her as an overall person - that has had me so frustrated, and I've told her all of this both privately and with a marriage counselor coaching - asking, begging, pleading, negotiating, and even demanding - all to no avail.

As I said, I'm going to suggest we seek the program that Kate has suggested, in yet one more attempt to come to an agreement over this.
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Old 26th August 2007, 08:34 PM   #14
johnj
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

I found a site that my wife has agreed to do with me even though we have spent some time in counsling. eharmony marriage just do a serch for it. The whole thing is that the whole time we spent with the counsler we just complained about each other so nothing came of it. I hope this time we can deal with our issues together accept each other and not complain about each other and try to understand. We have been more understanding with each other then we ever have. I guess seperating and going thru this has made us grow.
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Old 27th August 2007, 05:41 AM   #15
Robbie
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Re: Done everything I know how to do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnj View Post
I found a site that my wife has agreed to do with me even though we have spent some time in counsling. eharmony marriage just do a serch for it. The whole thing is that the whole time we spent with the counsler we just complained about each other so nothing came of it. I hope this time we can deal with our issues together accept each other and not complain about each other and try to understand. We have been more understanding with each other then we ever have. I guess seperating and going thru this has made us grow.
Wow...that's a long, rough road, but it sounds like it just might lead somewhere...Good Luck, and thanks for the additional advice!
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