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Old 10th September 2011, 09:23 AM   #91
Raymond
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

Who's stopping you going shopping now Baroness? Are you saying that if you had the money you would go on your own?
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Old 11th September 2011, 01:01 AM   #92
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

Probably so. Sometimes I feel that way and then other times I don't. For no reason today he just came up and hugged me. These are times when I love him but it seems as though no matter how hard I pray, I don't see any changes. But the spiritual book I read on a daily basis says first you plant the seed and wait for it to grow and maybe it hasn't grown yet.

Just because I think its time for things to change doesn't mean that's what God thinks or that he's not doing something that I can't see. I gave it all to him but yes, sometimes I think it would be so much easier to go it alone. I'm so tired of nothing changing and I get weary with it all.
 
Old 11th September 2011, 05:54 PM   #93
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

When you say change him what do you mean by that?

Shouldn't our prayers be to bless our spouses in their roles, in their health, physical protection, their security in work and finance, their emotional life and their faith and spiritual walk etc?
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Old 13th September 2011, 03:09 AM   #94
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

I said I don't see any changes, not necessarily in him, but in our relationship. I'm not trying to change him per se, just our relationship in that we could spend more time together romantically. Of course I pray for him every day, for his health and for him to be happy and for him to listen to what God is trying to say to him.

I don't think I would want him to change the man he is, there are many things about him I admire, like his volunteer work and the way he treats people, but he isn't taking the time to just be with me. I suggested that we hug each other every day and he liked that idea. Just so I get some kind of physical contact.

We watched football together yesterday, one of our favorite things to do together, and had a nice time and when I wanted to go to bed I went and kissed him and he said he loved me. I went to bed in about ten minutes the light went out in the front room. I could see he was tired when I was still in there with him and you'd think he'd come to bed since we were both tired.

But he didn't and I guess i'm just supposed to accept this and not be upset about it, I think that's what he wants. I used to get upset but prayed about it and I felt that God wanted me to just show him love and not walk around angry or upset. So this is the way I have been for the past few weeks and we get along well.

The other day I walked by him and said 'separate lives' and went into the other room and in a few minutes he came in angry and asked 'What did you just say to me?' I said 'separate lives', you are in there mostly and I am in here.' He said what do you want us to do? I told him I certainly wasn't going to spend all my time in there watching reruns.

And then went back in the front room and every time I went out there he wouldn't look at me and I knew he was still upset. I decided to get out of the house for awhile so on my way out he was still avoiding me so I walked out without a word. I took a bus up to the thrift store and looked around and bought a few things and came back.

I'd been gone about two hours. I do this when we argue sometimes, which hasn't been too much lately, but it gives us both a chance to think about what has just happened and when I came back his whole attitude had changed and he asked where I'd gone and I said the thrift store and from then on we were okay.

He needs to realize that our relationship is not normal. It isn't normal for two people who live together to spend most of their time apart until its time for me to cook dinner. Even eating dinner we are apart because I'm at the table and he's sitting on the sofa watching tv. If its something interesting I will sit with him but if it isn't I will sit at the table.

He will only sit at the table for special occasions because I used to ask him to and he would say he's watching something so now I don't bother. I like to sit at the table and eat. He's always very polite when I bring his dinner to him and says 'Thanks, honey.' and afterwards I do the dishes and then my back hurts by then so I go take a bubble bath or something.

It is not unpleasant here but neither is it romantic or very loving, just once in awhile so that's why I suggested giving each other a hug after he came and hugged me one morning. Did we hug each other today? Afraid not. I've been kind of busy on the computer because my browser crashed and I've been spending several hours trying to fix the problem.

I just wish I knew for certain it was ed, I was sure it was by our last encounter but he's never confirmed it and acts like everything is fine but surely he must know I know it isn't. Next month around the 20th will be the last time we actually made love and it be successful. That's a whole year. There have been a couple of attempts but nothing for 6 months and that's a long time not to have sex with your h.
 
Old 13th September 2011, 09:16 AM   #95
Raymond
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

Well done for praying for him. Don't let that drop. So long as you realise that you cannot change him by your own efforts and shouldn't try and change him anyway. We are the ones who need to change and that comes out of relationship with God who also uses circumstances as well.

One cannot manipulate the sexual arena and the more you try the more offence he seems to take.

As a christian it is obvious to me that I do not have power over my own body but the wife does and vice versa 1 Cor 7:4. This problem shouldn't come up for a christian, ed or not. He obviously doesn't see it that way. If there is a sexual need in marriage it should be met whether it is the wife or the husband.

However you need to start from where you are. One cannot demand sexual rights. They are freely given or not worth anything. If he studies the bible he would see clearly what the duties of a husband should be, the main one being that husband's should love their wives, which would include everything. This is not only feelings but loving on purpose.

The problem therefore in my eyes is that it is spiritual and that should be the direction of your prayers: his faith and spiritual walk. One of the tools in this is the way you live and behave.
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Old 13th September 2011, 10:29 PM   #96
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

Raymond, I believe that he does have ed and doesn't want to start something he can't finish so that's why he is always reassuring me that he loves me. No, I don't want to change him but I have changed quite a bit since I read and pray every day. I don't feel so unhappy or like I'm missing out on something because I know my h loves me and what's more important, I know God loves me and will work this all out.

If not, and it continues do you think I have a right to leave since my needs are not being met by him? I still care for him a great deal and we are getting along very well but I think about the future and its hard for me to accept that I will never again make love to anyone. Of course I can't make him try to make love to me but you see my problem.

We have a life together and most of the time it runs smoothly and we have a good time together and sometimes we're just doing our own thing and that's fine. I don't demand he be with me and visa versa. But am I supposed to just live like this? He isn't doing what the bible says husbands should do and if he's m then he'd kind of cheating on me, isn't he? And under those circumstances do I have the right to leave?

I would prefer not to leave even though we don't have a lot of things in common but he's the only man I want to be with. But am I supposed to live the rest of my life like this just because he won't admit the ed and so he won't go and seek help for it?

I got him the vitamins and he's been taking them but I see any movement in my direction regarding sex. Sure, he slept with me, but nothing happening and we have started hugging and kissing each other almost every day but is that supposed to be enough? Right now I'm not really stressed out about it.

God has taken the frustration and urgency and panic from me and so I am just trusting in him and not worrying about things, but my question to you is this m cheating? And do I have a right to break up with him in the future because he isn't fulfilling his husbandly duties? I want to know what you think in case this is the case in the future.

Believe me when I say that I am not in a bad place right now, either physically or mentally. We've been getting along really well but nothing has really changed and we still don't talk about it. When I tried he bristled and just went along with what I said so I would stop discussing it and he acts like there's no problem, he's just been tired, etc. But there is a problem when in a few weeks it will be one years since we've made love.
 
Old 14th September 2011, 10:50 AM   #97
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

If you are in a good place Baroness then you want to stay in a good place and not let things get to you.

To me you seem to being saying two things. One that this does not bother you so much as you are in a good place. Two it does bother you and you are asking whether divorce would be okay if it came to it.

I would say personally that you do not have grounds for divorce as a christian but that depends on how you see it. As I see it adultery is the only grounds for divorce but even then some couples can get over this. It is true there are some situations where mental adultery (porn) has taken over and in some cases could be grounds for divorce. I wouldn't say it was an automatic one and one would have to seek God over it. Of course there are the obvious situations like extreme cruelty etc. where the marriage has broken down and not much can be done. I would be the last to be legalistic in these situations and force them together when it has clearly ended.

From what you say about your husband there is a lot we do not really know. You mention that you saw him once mb to some porn but I don't see he is habitually into it or you would know it for sure.

I do think he is not fulfilling his duty as a husband as he should be attentive to your physical needs. I reckon he is thinking more about his own problem than you in this. I believe where there is a will there is a way but who knows what is going through his mind.

I think the answer initially may be verbal in the way you talk about it. You have to find a way into the subject which will take a lot of skill on your part which means you don't talk about his duty. We are all sexual beings him included. Maybe if you could get to the place of conversation on the subject without him feeling threatened to perform it will yield dividends. Perhaps you can meet his sexual needs first which will surely open up the road to having sex on the agenda again.

He surely has sexual needs. Trying to meet them in the wrong way is proof of that.
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Old 15th September 2011, 02:34 AM   #98
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

I am saying two things, Raymond, and that is that is doesn't bother me all the time like it used to and we are in a good place, and I was asking about the leaving him part because I was curious as to what you think and because at some point I may have to think about this and I wanted to know where another christian stood on this issue.

He does not watch porn and hasn't since the one time and he saw I was so upset. I actually did talk to him about this and in a way where he wasn't defensive at all land he agreed that we should spend some physical time together but it hasn't happened yet. I don't get angry or have an attitude about this. I show him the same attention and love as if we had a great sex life.

I am no longer angry and frustrated about it most of the time. There are times at night when i'm in bed alone that I do think about it and for a few minutes I get upset and then step myself and talk to God instead. I have to mentally will myself not to keep thinking about it and I know God has helped me with this.

He must have sensed the change in me or God is dealing with him because its almost as if our relationship has gone back to the beginning. Now he comes in and smiles at me and says, Hi, Honey! I smile back and we talk now whereas before we wouldn't really talk or smile much at each other either. We hug each other and there is a video of him on youtube where a woman was touring the canyon and she stopped to talk to him and he was joking around with her and was so cute!

I told him he was famous and that it was really great and kissed him and told him I was proud of him. There is only a positive communication between us now and in the atmosphere. I don't talk to him about the problem anymore because we're getting along so much better and I know that physical contact is more likely when things are good between us.

However; I am not constantly thinking about this as I was before. I see him making an effort to include me more in the day to day activities. Of course I still miss the sex but since he is being more affectionate, I find that I am happy with that for now. When I realized it would be a year since we had sex I did get a little upset and could hardly believe a year had gone by without us actually making love.

I think what motivates his actions is that he does still have some sex drive but is afraid to try and disappoint, so he hasn't tried. I also know that he has our finances on his mind and he works hard up at the canyon and so that takes a toll on him. I have noticed that the vitamins I give him have helped him not be so tired. I will give you an example of the difference in us now;

Yesterday he was a little quiet when he was sitting there watching tv. Before I would have asked if something was wrong and he would have said no and I would frown and go to my room and be upset about it and probably not talk to him the rest of the night. It's hard to talk to someone when they are not responsive.

When he got this way yesterday I said, You're kind of pensive, are you in your quiet mode? He said yes and I said cheerfully, Okay! There is change here, it isn't the change I was hoping for but it is a change and it makes it easier to be here with him. As to seeing to his needs first, that is always what happens.

I always see to his needs first and then he sees to mine and then we make love. Now he isn't making an effort at all and because I don't get upset when it doesn't happen, perhaps he thinks it okay with me. Next month on the day when we last made love last year, I am going to tell him it has been a year.

I don't think he actually thinks he's hurting me by not making any attempts to make love to me. I have talked to him about this a few times and I can do no more. He doesn't want to talk about it so I haven't done so and now we get along better. I do think he's selfish in only thinking about himself but I think its more fear than anything, fear of failing, fear of me thinking he's not the man he used to be because, believe me, he was quite incredible for a man that age.

I miss that man and for a long time I was angry that I couldn't have it back the way it used to be but I have been reading in this booklet my mom gave me that is spiritual and they talk about relationships a lot and how they change and how to deal with it. I don't know what else to do except to try and have a good relationship regardless of the sex issue.

In essence; I have lightened up on him and my thoughts especially and just try to enjoy our life together. We still spend a lot of time in separate rooms and if anything, I am too nice and caring to him. I treat him like the king of the castle and this is the way I have always treated men but I do this for him in particular because I know that women have not treated him well in the past.

We love each other and while this is hard for me, I have faith in God and I believe he can do anything. If it doesn't work out and it keeps going like this and I get so upset I just can't do it anymore, then we will go our separate ways. But that will not happen as long as I feel God wants me to stay here because there is a purpose for us being together.

From the beginning I have felt this. He was a mess when I met him and was so angry and resentful of his past that he was hard to get along with. He has changed so much since then it is remarkable and I know if we hadn't gotten together this would not have happened. God has a work to do here, and not just with him, with me also as I have discovered the past few months.

I am trusting that God has a plan, otherwise why wouldn't he have provided me a way out? Yes, I still think about it, i'm only 56 and so giving up sex was never on my agenda. However; we have a love that has always been deep when I was convinced that love cannot last. We also have a bond of the heart and not just for each other but in the way to help and speak to other people, always offering a helping hand and just kindness in general.

He said this is what drew him to me in the first place and not my face and body, but my attitude. I can't give up on us, not now, for I don't know the future, but for now I'm going to give it my all and make him happy just like he says he always is and trust God to do the rest.
 
Old 15th September 2011, 09:11 AM   #99
Raymond
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

You are your own best counselor Baroness at least in the post you have just written. You have got it right spiritually but are going through a kind of dying to the normal sexual relationship in a marriage.

You said that you used to meet his needs and then he met yours. As at the moment he has a fear of whether he would be able to meet your need, would it be a good idea to meet his need without the offer of anything in return? At least sex would be happening and anything can happen from there. You would have to make it clear that you are meeting his need and do not expect anything in return. I think he is aware of not being able to meet your need so you wouldn't need to push this again. It's just a thought and it would be a very selfless thing for you to do, but sometimes when we give of ourselves things happen. Give and it shall be given to you?
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Old 15th September 2011, 07:01 PM   #100
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

I have done as you suggested and he just shook his head and said, Don't be ridiculous. He acted as though I was crazy to suggest such a thing because he said he enjoys having sex with me, its just that he gets tired sometimes. So there you have it. I was tempted to tell him its almost been a year but didn't and he wasn't too happy about what I said.

I said it in a nice way but he's denying there is a problem and made me feel like an idiot for offering. He is either in denial or is just pretending nothing is wrong because he doesn't want me to think he isn't the man he used to be. I feel like a fool now and it isn't your fault, I knew he would react like this but I thought I would give it a try.

I had to wait for him to mute the tv to even talk to him. Since we have been getting along I will just let this go but if he thinks I'm living this way for the rest of my life he is very wrong. I don't have what it takes to just say ok, I can go without sex for the rest of my life.
 
Old 15th September 2011, 07:33 PM   #101
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

mmm I enjoy having sex with you - what a year ago?

Sorry if you got embarrassed Baroness. I am not sure what you said to him or what you offered. Apparently he didn't take it as a gift so he still has pride about his manhood apparently. I think the offer will be there in his mind. If he ever wants to be real he will have to accept the facts as they are now. I think he is deceiving himself which doesn't help where sex is involved. Some ed is purely psychosomatic did you know.
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Old 16th September 2011, 07:51 PM   #102
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Wink Re: Husband doesn't want sex

No, I didn't know that. I am basing the assumption of the ed on the last time we tried, which was last Feb. I think and he couldn't stay erect and said he was just tired and there was another time when he tried and failed but told me he had an orgasm when I know very well he did not. Even though we wouldn't have an o he still at least tried.

Now he isn't trying but that could be my fault since the last time this happened I got upset during foreplay and said he wasn't getting hard and he said yes he was, and was angry and left the bedroom and went out on the sofa. I am usually quite understanding but I can't do foreplay for over half an hour! That was just me doing it, not him.

I don't mean to say things that are inappropriate but I don't know how else to explain things to you and others. He was sitting on the sofa just now and I impulsively went over to him and kissed him. There was a time when I was just beginning to post that I would never have done that. I wouldn't go near him and so we had no affection between us.

I don't know if my shows of affection are helping the situation but I can't help but think that love can conquer all and showing someone you love them can only be a good thing and make them feel confident that someone loves them even though they aren't doing right by them in this area. This also shows him that even though he isn't really trying in this area, I am going to love him no matter what.

This is why I have put up with things in that past from him that I wouldn't ordinarily do, things that hurt me, because from the beginning I felt strongly that God wanted me to show him love, that someone truly loved him even though he was being a jerk. The result of this is that he changed quite a bit. He started opening up to me eventually and said he was amazed that I still loved him and was with him.

I don't know why I felt to do this but the feeling was strong and that's what I was trying to accomplish because no woman has stayed with him and most of them were domineering and had a problem with alcohol. I had a problem with vodka, as I've said, but I corrected the problem. I quit when I realized how I was acting and never looked back.

I did this for myself and for our relationship. He might have deserved some of the things I said to him but it wasn't a good christian example and I've always prided myself on being a lady and so I couldn't be like that any more. I am going to continue to show him love because I don't feel released from this relationship.

I have faith in God and the change in me has been a very good thing. I should have known there was no way for me to be truly happy without God in my life and without putting him first.
 
Old 19th September 2011, 09:26 AM   #103
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Baronness

Your attitude is very commendable Baroness. If there is healing and acceptance he is needing then you seem the right person.

I don't understand when you say you don't feel a release from this relationship. Why would you ever unless he was into adultery or something? Isn't marriage a commitment for life?

With regard to sex I think it was a big mistake for you to mention during foreplay that he wasn't getting hard. At his age he would need to relax and take his time. Bringing attention to that aspect would have put a lot of performance pressure on him. Did you know that he can still orgasm even with ed. The pleasure would be still there believe it or not. What he would be worried about is not being able to satisfy you. He would be more amenable to sex if that pressure wasn't there. I don't know what you can do to release him from that but you must find a way. There is a lot he can do to improve the situation but it must start from the basis of nil pressure. He must be allowed to enjoy sex regardless of it. The ability to enjoy sex regardless of it would most likely lead to an improvement once he is released from performing. Can you not think of other ways to enjoy sex even as a temporary measure?
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Old 20th September 2011, 01:48 AM   #104
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Re: Husband doesn't want sex

Of course I have another way to enjoy sex and have often thought it was better since I didn't have to deal with his problems but it can't take the place of a man touching you. I said I didn't feel released because I guess I expected God to take the love from me and in a way he is cheating on me if he's m.

And even though he is 65 he is still very energetic during sex. He doesn't take his time at all, he just gets to it and this works for both of us. He doesn't make love slow but quickly and passionately and it was still that way the last time we were together.

We were having a nice time yesterday watching football together. I made a nice dinner and we were talking and somehow the month of October was brought up and without thinking I said yes, next month you and I have a date and he said okay. Then I said because next month on the 20th will be a year since we made love. He said, Jesus! He was genuinely shocked that it had been that long.

I said he knew I kept a diary and then I didn't say anything and neither did he. I thought my letting the conversation go would give him a chance to think about it since he was obviously shocked but he didn't say anything and it occurred to me later that he could have said something. He could have apologized for letting so much time go by or addressed it in some other way but he didn't say anything else about it.

Of course when I wanted to go to bed later in the night I said I was going to bed and he said he was going to stay up a little longer. He used to say that when he would watch tv for a few minutes and then he would come to bed but he didn't. You'd think that he would have wanted to sleep with me after finding out how long it had been, but no, it didn't change a thing.

I wasn't going to tell him yet but the time seemed appropriate. There was a couple of nights ago when I was in my room and noticed the lights were out in the front room and I thought he was m. The next day I asked how come he went to bed so early and he said he was meditating. He meditates in that he will close his eyes and clear his mind and repeat the name of Jesus over and over again and just be still.

I've done that too sometimes but I would rather just talk to God, but the point is I was thinking he was m when he was communicating with God instead so I can't assume he is doing that. When an ed commercial comes on or the subject is broached on a talk show; you should see how quiet the room becomes. He listens but makes no comments.

The past couple of days I've been kind of fed up with the whole thing and asked God why he wasn't doing something in my life, if not in this situation, then something else, just something to make me feel encouraged but I got no response in my spirit or otherwise and I had to apologize for my words and assured God that I have not lost faith in him.

I told him I just wasn't the kind of woman that can just accept this, which is why i'm doing good for several days and then I get frustrated. I mustn't do this but I don't know how to stop. I have needs that aren't being met and no matter how brave I try to be and how understanding and loving I am, this is still going to bother me.

To just accept this way of life would not be me and there was a time when I would have already been gone but I still love him and he was wearing this tank top and of course his muscles look great now and I said to him that a lot of good it did me, because I can't use them. I have always liked his muscles and he knows that and he is quite proud of them by the way he flexes them for me.

He feels no pressure from me in the sex area and hasn't for a long time and that hasn't helped him in wanting to sleep with me. He knows its a lot to expect and that another woman wouldn't be so gracious and yet he still acts like there's no problem. Today he told me he wasn't taking those vitamins anymore because his chest hurts and thinks its the vitamins.

I told him I would get him some others so its time to step up on the pills I get him. There's another natural herb that I'm going to get him, I just wanted him to get used to taking a pill a day first. I'm not sure its doing any good. I have to stick to natural herbs that help other things as well and not resort to anything stronger.

He had only one pill left in the bottle so he'd taken the whole thing and he might have been more talkative and energetic as to going up to the canyon, but I didn't see any difference it made between us. I've been reading other women's comments on different post sites and this happens to a lot of women.

Yes, leaving is one way to get rid of the problem but I can't give up now. We've been together too long and to leave now would mean I have wasted the last nine years and I don't believe that I have wasted them. I can be patient with him as a rule, but even I get impatient sometimes. I did notice that he didn't mind me telling him about it being a year since we had sex.

I said it in a kind of light way and he didn't resent it or stiffen up like he used to when I would bring up sex. But I now realized that all the times when I think he's in there m, doesn't mean that's what he's doing. I haven't seen any signs of it when I come into the room like I have been seeing for a long time.

I think its the not knowing that is the hard part. I know he has to be doing it and I do know that they can still do it even though they have ed. Perhaps I should just be happy that he isn't watching porn or cheating on me as people have suggested, but I find that small consolation when he doesn't even make an effort.

I don't know why I said we had a date next month but he seemed to readily agree. All I know is time is wasting, years are being wasted when we could be having fun like we used to, and satisfaction and a real deep connection. He used to tell me I was it, he looked forward to making love to me and I have to wonder what changed.

When we were having great sex we had other problems. Those problems have been resolved and we get along better now than ever most of the time, but now we don't have sex. Can't I have both? It would be so easy to just break up and find a man who likes to be with me in the sack, instead of one who prefers tv and a sofa to being with me.

I do trust God but I also know he can't change a person if they don't want to change and I just hope that isn't the case. I asked God for direction, for help in dealing with this, but I can't ask him to change the person I am for he made me like this. So what is the answer? For another woman it could be to just leave because she tried and now she's done.

For yet another woman the answer is to stay and hope things change but stay regardless because she loves the man she's with. What is the correct answer? There is no correct answer because what is right for one person may not be right for me. I know what the bible says but he isn't doing what God wants husbands to do.

Should I feel sorry for him because he's going through this and he's always been such a virile man and it must be hard? Or should I think of myself and not subject myself to another five years of this and then just leave when I'm much older?

I don't want to waste my life on a man who doesn't care how I feel and won't talk about it. And yet, do I walk away from love when there is no guarantee I will find it again? These are questions I dont' have the answers for, I don't know what to do and so I turn to God and when I do I just get; 'Show him love'. That's what I've been doing.

Show him love until i'm seventy and all my looks are gone and he never did touch me again? That's what I'm afraid of and maybe I've already waited too long. This is quite a puzzle. When we fell in love years ago I felt like I was going to be happy at last, that I couldn't believe I found true love.

Now there's times when I don't even want to look at him because I'm just sick of the whole thing. I have to work this out within myself but I have changed already because of this and why should I be the only one making the effort? All I ever wanted was to matter to someone and I thought I had found him. Apparently not. If I mattered he wouldn't be putting me through this.

I would never do this to him. I could never pretend everything was fine when I knew good and well it wasn't. I could never lie and make excuses just because I was too much of a coward to at least try.
 
Old 20th September 2011, 12:52 PM   #105
Raymond
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,409
Re: Husband doesn't want sex

Baroness I was not implying that you should have sex without him at all. If it is wrong for him to do that wouldn't it be for you? I have heard of wives doing this to awaken themselves for their husbands but I don't think this would apply to you.

No, what I was saying, if you read my comments, was to find a way to release him from this pressure to have an erection and enjoy sex in other ways with him for the time being until his confidence returns. If you can find a way to do this and release him from performance pressure, encouraging him as he is, he may well respond. In due course he may even get back to where he was.

The main thing is to undo the damage that may have been done when you commented on him not having an erection during foreplay. You may not think it was much to say but it does appear that he has taken this to heart and now feels pressure to perform. If you can undo this with acceptance of his condition and accept having sex with him as he is I would make a guess that he would enjoy this and be released from pressure.

Please read my previous post again as I don't think you are getting what I am trying to say.

With regard to love you are doing well but I think there is a danger of you tying it to sexual response when real love doesn't seek it's own but is given freely. Yes it will often come back to us but we don't give for that reason.
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