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Old 4th July 2010, 08:56 AM   #106
UpandDown
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Re: Limbo No More

Thanks Downtown. It means a lot to log on here and see your response!

I don't know if you read my extremely long posts on 14th April, but basically it shows how his low self esteem sets of a chain of events and reactions to events that result in his depression spiralling down. During these times he mostly became depressed as you would expect (i.e. low energy, morose demeanour etc) but on the flip side a lot of anger.

The violence was from when we started living together. It started with him restraining me from throwing the thing that was in my hand and progressed on from there over time. We moved in together 9 years ago then when we moved into our house 6 years ago all the violence stopped I think.

He was very happy when our son was born, but that was to do with being happy at work, but soon he started to feel like a terrible father (although he hid it by pretending it was easy) and it was a big part of why he let it fall apart at work. He sets himself up to fail all the time.

He hates being angry and all the terrible feelings he is feeling. I think he thinks that our relationship is unhealthy and that is what has caused these feelings. I'm not so sure, I think our relationship was unhealthy (especially the fact that he "packed up so much of himself to be with me" and that he couldnt' cope when I didn't need looking after) but I think the problem is within him.

It's funny because at times he seems to realise this on his own (for example when we were waiting to go to MC he said he wanted to find out what went wrong for the future but when it actually came to it he didn't want to go there) but other times he pretends he is not depressed and never has been depressed and that I just want to label him so that I have something to blame our problems on (yet a couple of years ago the doctor told him he was depressed and it was a huge relief to him!!)

With regards to the acting he's been acting ever since I've known him. From the moment we got together he's pretended to be someone he's not and part of the disintegration of our relationship has been to do with his inability to maintain this persona that he is trying to wear. I don't mind the real him so it's not that I've wanted him to be someone else - for some reason he hates himself. I don't know whether it started with me but I suspect it started before just from what family and friends have said.

He has always been in plays (mostly musical theatre) since he was at school. I think he is drawn to it as it is complete escapism and he is fairly good at it so he gets compliments (even though he hates that!) He has told me in the past that when he used to finish a rehearsal period and show run he would feel so devastated that he preferred to always have something else to work on straight away. This rang alarm bells with me when he said it but I assumed it was because he ate slept and breathed it out of choice and he could still be in shows and take a bit of a step back. I think I'm wrong there though as it is the total escapim he wants. Throughout the rehearsals for his current show he has avoided thinking about our relationship by immersing himself in the show just like he avoided thinking about how he was feeling when his Grandma died by insisting he still had the children.

The thing about the last 10 years is that it has gone in cycles and there have been increasingly smaller times of happiness/normality. But nonetheless these periods have each time made me think everything is going to be ok....how wrong I was!

Has this answered your questions? I am getting a bit distracted by toddlers so will stop for now.

x
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Old 4th July 2010, 05:39 PM   #107
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Re: Limbo No More

Quote:
I think he is drawn to it as it is complete escapism and he is fairly good at it so he gets compliments (even though he hates that!)
Kathryn, it is common for folks with low self esteem to have difficulty receiving compliments because, with them feeling strongly that the compliments are undeserved, they feel guilty about having tricked the other person. Hence, even though they crave compliments, they tend to undermine or sabotage the compliments when they actually get them. This sabotaging behavior is especially apparent with BPDers because they hate themselves and hold themselves to unattainable standards. That is, they are very hard on themselves and expect such perfection that many of them simply give up trying to do anything.
Quote:
From the moment we got together he's pretended to be someone he's not and part of the disintegration of our relationship has been to do with his inability to maintain this persona that he is trying to wear.
As I discussed before, BPDers have no stable sense of self to guide their behavior. They therefore behave in a way they believe other people are expecting them to behave. So they end up acting and playing a role much of the time every day. In this respect, they are like NPDers who also spend enormous energy perfecting a false image. With NPDers, however, the need for a false image is not due to instability (they are not unstable) but, rather, because their true self is so buried that it seems not to exist. Hence, whereas BPDers have a gut level feeling and awareness that their projected image is fake, NPDers do not -- they believe it is their true self. But, of course, having a few strong BPD traits does not mean Dan has BPD. At least five of the nine traits must apply for a person to have that disorder.
Quote:
It started with him restraining me from throwing the thing that was in my hand and progressed on from there over time. We moved in together 9 years ago then when we moved into our house 6 years ago all the violence stopped I think.
Surprisingly, when I ask you -- for the second time -- to describe Dan's violent behavior, the only example you give is of him restraining your violent behavior, i.e., trying to throw things at him.

Again, what was so violent about his behavior during the first three years you lived together? How often did it occur? And why are you so unsure whether it happened again during the subsequent six years? If it was physical violence against you, it is hard to imagine your having forgotten it. And, by the way, happy Fourth of July, Kathryn!
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Old 4th July 2010, 06:07 PM   #108
UpandDown
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Re: Limbo No More

Thanks Downtown - I imagine I should be saying Happy Fourth Of July to you really as we don't celebrate it as such here (UK)

About the violence I honestly can't remember it. I am worried about the fact that I forget stuff - as you say I should remember it really well. I have mentioned in one post about the way I don't bear grudges. It's that thing that's happened here. It's more than not bearing a grudge but that's the only way I can think of it. I remember the feelings afterwards of anger that I let it happen and shame that I took part in it (I always fought back) and the renewed determination to never let it happen again.

BTW not an excuse but the item I was going to throw was not aimed at him in any way. It was a very unhealthy way I used to deal with fraustration - we wouldn't even necessarily be having an argument between us. I have always done it but onto soft things (again not an excuse) like the bed or sofa. It's like a toddler thing to do and I don't do it anymore. It did get out of hand with living with Dan partly because of his reaction to me getting upset he could never cope with it. I'm quite a fiery passionate person and I flare up but then I'm fine. I've stopped it now through being with Dan but before Dan my friends and family would always defuse me by not rising to it and just letting me get on with my little rant. That's not to say it's an ok way to behave - it is childish that's for sure.

I think it went 1) I went to throw something 2) he restrained me 3) I got angry at being restrained and struggled - kicked him if I could (being restrained made me scared then angry.) I don't know how it happened but there were times he did hit me and grab me. He also would throw me onto the sofa or bed or against the wall all in the guise of trying to restrain me. I just fought back even more and I did him some injuries too at times. Just remembered being smacked in the face too but mostly he grabbed and threw me places because he was so much stronger.

Back then and before I always used to deal with fraustration by having a rant but I would always feel better after and it didn't hurt anyone (although people may have been walking on eggshells - that wasn't the impression I got though.) He has never been able to cope with me being emotional in any way unless he is in a really good place.

When we lived in the flat the violence happened maybe 20 times then in the house I think it did happen a number of times but not since the boys were born so probably about 30 times in 5 years?

Thanks for taking the time to reply
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Old 4th July 2010, 07:09 PM   #109
UpandDown
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Re: Limbo No More

Well Dan brought the children back and was miserable even in front of his parents. (He was miserable yesterday at drop off and pick up and earlier today at pick up too!) I used to think I had done something until I found out I hadn't he just was dealing with his feelings. I can only assume that's what's happening now (probably because the show's over!) unless he actually is pissed off with me which is possible.....I guess I'll never know and although it affects me at the time at least I don't have to live with it anymore.

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Old 4th July 2010, 10:05 PM   #110
Downtown
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Re: Limbo No More

Quote:
It did get out of hand with living with Dan partly because of his reaction to me getting upset he could never cope with it.
With BPDers, the events they are reacting to when angry are usually childhood events that left them filled with anger. Hence, you can easily trigger them with an innocent comment or action that really is not the source of their anger.

With Dan, however, that is not the case at all. As you describe it, you initiated the fights by becoming angry and throwing a tantrum, to which he over-reacted by grabbing you, pushing you, or restraining you. It sounds like he allowed himself to get overwhelmed and then act out.

Because you are not likely to get any sense of closure from Dan, I believe it would be worth your time to see a therapist for a few sessions to get a professional opinion on why he acts like he does. For myself, I found that understanding my exW's behavior was a great comfort, providing a sense of closure that she would not -- could not -- give me. It eliminated those nagging doubts I had about "if I had only tried doing this or that." I finally realized I had been trying far too hard -- by trying to do the impossible.

Sorry about the Fourth of July comment. Of course, I know you are in the UK but I sometimes lose sight of it.
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Old 4th July 2010, 10:41 PM   #111
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Re: Limbo No More

No need to apologise about 4th July - I am very happy for it!!!

Thanks for your thoughts. I do think it would help me to understand him more. I do sometimes catch myself thinking I could have tried harder to help him which is daft as I would have done anything for him and I tried a lot. It's just when I think how tough he is finding things (not that you can see it from the outside) my heart just goes out to him.

I have really appreciated your input and insight into my situation and although I know Dan is not a borderline it has helped me think around a lot of things and it has crystalised in my mind that there is something deep going on with him to do with his emotions - repressing them mostly - and maybe to do with something else (interestingly bearing in mind some of the other chats on here, his Mum once asked me if I thought he could be gay and struggling to accept it!! She also instinctively feels there's something big there. Not that she's tried to help him unearth it though!!.....)

Anyway, will think on.
Thanks again for your time, it really has helped me through a bad patch.

Love Kathryn
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Old 5th July 2010, 04:00 AM   #112
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Re: Limbo No More

Quote:
Although I know Dan is not a borderline it has helped me think around a lot of things and it has crystalised in my mind that there is something deep going on with him to do with his emotions
Kathryn, I agree that Dan likely does not have a strong pattern of BPD traits. It nonetheless is helpful to understand the nine traits because all of us have all nine BPD traits and occassionally exhibit them, usually at a low level if we are healthy. So it helps us understand some of our own behaviors as well as occassional behaviors of other people. I'm glad to hear that you found some of our discussion useful in that way. Please take care.
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Old 5th July 2010, 09:26 AM   #113
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Re: Limbo No More

Hi Kathryn,

Hope you had an excellent weekend and the boys gave you a chance for a rest!

Glad you're starting to feel a little better. I admire your ability to forget the negatives, they're the things I'm focusing on at the moment and yes, I probably come across as a bit bitter & twisted at the moment and I do worry I'm adding 2 & 2 together and coming up with 5, but it helps me stay sane and focused! If I focused on his positives I'd find it even harder to get on with my life.

Texting him was a very strong thing to do - I'm not sure I'd have been as generous in your place.

Reading your post to DT, I saw a lot of similarities between Dan and my ex. I think we've talked about this before-
Quote:
there have been no clues from him verbally about what he has been feeling until suddenly in February it all came pouring out
Yup. I raised the issues around our relationship twice in the previous year. He said nothing then. Mid-January he finally gets the guts up.
Quote:
I'm only just starting to realise how I was depressed myself from the last year from living with him.
My counsellor listened to me wail about his depression, and then very quietly asked 'And what about your depression?' which really took the wind out of my sails! Reactive depression, it's called apparently. I'm thinking about coining the term 'Passive depression' - depression brought on as a result of living with a depressive….
Quote:
We were never able to just go out and have fun - we did go out but he was such a depressing presence
And made you feel like all the effort put into going out in the first place was a waste of time? And you just wanted to slap him?
Quote:
He can't take compliments at all
Yep!
Quote:
I have also suddenly started to relate to the criticism thing that people on here often talk about. He does it in such a veiled way though that I didn't notice it at first.
It does creep up on you gradually. I hadn't realised how bad it had got until my sister pointed out that he regularly 'had a right go at me.'
Quote:
but it's that pushing away or self fulfilling prophecy
Ex has actually said that he goes into every relationship wondering when it will end, not if. And of course, then they set about proving themselves right…sickening, isn't it? If we knew right from the start, would we have wasted as much of our lives on them? I have thoughts that he aught to have a tatoo on him somewhere 'Women beware, this man will seriously screw your head up'
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they never demonstrate their love and the whole family never says when anything is bothering them
Yes, yes, yes!! Ex's family are exactly the same. Okaaay, so next man must have a loving and argumentative family!
Quote:
People keep saying he chose me because he sensed some weakness in me that he could manipulate. Do you think that's true?
No, I don't. In my case, I don't wonder if he sensed a weakness. What I do think is that we subconciously pick partners based to an extent on what we perceive to be familiar. (Counsellor thinks I picked ex because he's not dissimilar to my father ). I think we also choose people we'd like to be like- I thought ex was more confident than I. Oooops! I suspect both my ex and Dan picked us not because they sensed a weakness, but because they sensed a strength that they lacked, probably an emotional strength? Ex has admitted he hoped some of my intellectual ability and knowledge would 'rub off' on him. Given that they both come from emotionally repressed families, maybe they were drawn to the opposite of that?

Sorry to butt in on your post to DT, but it just rang a lot of bells with me,

Huge hugs,
Axx
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Old 5th July 2010, 04:42 PM   #114
Downtown
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Re: Limbo No More

Quote:
Sorry to butt in on your post to DT
On the contrary, Wiggle, your comments are insightful and have not interferred at all with mine. Because my experience is limited to living with a BPD exW and bipolar foster son, and because Dan has neither of those disorders, I had few useful ideas to suggest. To the extent I said anything helpful to Kathryn, it likely was my discussion of how a person under great stress is capable of doing black-white thinking -- where his perception of you flips 180 degrees and is impervious to anything you say to the contrary (because the flip is based on strong emotion, not rational thought).
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Old 8th July 2010, 12:34 AM   #115
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Re: Limbo No More

Hi everyone

It's been an interesting night. Dan came over to discuss access. He tried to manipulate and bully me into giving him one weekend off per month. I totally stood up to him and I'm so proud of myself. He even tried blackmail!! The thing was, I had come up with a really good alternative which I thought could really suit both of us which he wouldn't have a bar of to start with. All of a sudden however, he realised I wasn't going to back off like I usually do (his power over me is weakening!) and he started thinking about my idea properly and has now agreed to it in principal!

He tried to say it's not fair if he does every weekend as he can never go out without getting a babysitter and I can always say yes to going out on Fri and Sat nights! From the way he was talking it was pretty clear he just wants to live the life he had 10 years ago.....but he can't because he now has children! Tough - shouldn't have had them then!

He is worried his social life will be curtailed - doesn't seem to have suffered much so far whereas I have put my life on hold at the moment to concentrate on the boys.

Anyway, thank goodness I had my therapy session booked in today (Reverse Therapy - last time I went was this time last year. I go when my neck swells up as I don't want to get CFS again) because my therapist John coached me on standing up for myself.

Nearly cried once talking about the house (we're going over there Sunday to finish off) but apart from that a really good result.

Love Kathryn
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Old 8th July 2010, 12:53 AM   #116
Downtown
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Re: Limbo No More

Congratulations, Kathryn! Very well done. You should feel proud of yourself. Am glad to hear that things are going so well for you at this point in the transition.
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Old 8th July 2010, 06:48 AM   #117
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Re: Limbo No More

Hey kathryn, I'm proud too. It sounds like you really are getting some control back, and I think you are fabulously confident! You are getting your confidence back just as I am losing mine, and I miss it dearly.
I also want to second wiggle on every single similarity. m has them too, and I'll vouch that we've tried enough. I wish I could be as strong as you are. I'll never be divorced. I'll never see that happen. I'll die or be widowed first.

J
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Old 9th July 2010, 12:03 PM   #118
UpandDown
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Re: Limbo No More

Just realised something crucial - he never was a loving husband!! When people used to say how lucky I was because Dan was fantastic I used to agree, but there used to be a nagging voice in the back of my mind saying he had his downsides. Basically, the reason he did loving, caring things for me and was a "great" husband in letting me go out and do what I wanted, always supporting me in my career, always listening to my problems etc etc, was because he was trying to make up for not feeling good enough.

Basically his self esteem is so non existent he has spent the whole of our relationship trying to make it up to me that he is a cr*p person. He has a list of goodness knows how many ways he is rubbish in his head and although none of them are real and certainly none of them bother me, he does all the other stuff to off-set it.

I know he used to feel like a bad Dad so I need to watch out in the future there may be a meltdown coming. Also, a comment he made the other day about his job really highlighted he is the same old Dan. He doesn't think he's good enough to do the job, he got it under false pretences and they'll find out unless he works super hard and does everything perfect.

I don't understand how he can't see he has problems!!

Anyway, the good thing is what he said would happen is happening! I'm actually starting to realise some of the things he said are true (like he never loved me) and the next logical step is I will feel better off without him.

Bottom line - I never actually had him.

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Old 9th July 2010, 02:50 PM   #119
Downtown
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Re: Limbo No More

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... the reason he did loving, caring things for me and was a "great" husband in letting me go out and do what I wanted, always supporting me in my career, always listening to my problems etc etc, was because he was trying to make up for not feeling good enough.
Kathryn, I am all for your hating your husband because I believe you are so much a caretaker (like me) that your only hope for leaving him is to hold onto your anger for months until you are at a safe distance. I therefore advocate using your anger like a crutch to walk away and, then when you are safe, kick it away. On the other hand, I hate for you to pass up this opportunity to see that we "normal" people differ from BPDers only by degree. We have all of the same nine traits and, when we are very mad or deeply hurt, we often end up acting like the BPDers do.

Specifically, I am talking about the black-white thinking you are doing right now, painting your H as an evil man who never loved you. And, incredibly, in your distorted perception of him -- fueled by your strong emotions -- you are atributing every good and decent thing he did for you to his selfish desire to feel good about himself.

Doesn't that sound familiar? Doesn't that sound EXACTLY like the cr@p coming out of his mouth nearly every day in recent months? That ability to reinterpret a person's motivations for everything done in the past ten years -- and to do the reinterpretation in 15 seconds -- explains how BPDers can flip flop so rapidly and so frequently.

Well, don't beat yourself up about it. I did it too -- and still do whenever I get real angry or hurt. And you can go to the BPD websites targeted to the BPDers' partners and you will see the same harsh allegations -- the same "all bad" and "splitting black" thinking -- all over the websites. That is, the nonBPD partners are so quick to criticize the BPDers for their childish black-white thinking but the partners turn right around and do it on nearly every page in the websites.
Quote:
Just realised something crucial - he never was a loving husband!!
Perhaps I am wrong but my view is that, if Dan is a BPDer, he really did love you. As with a four year old child, the problem was not a lack of love but, rather, the very immature nature of that love. And, as if that is not problem enough, there is the endless flipping back and forth between the immature loving and the unadulterated hating.

With children, what we adults perceive as "love" mostly means "I need you to love me." Even so, if you are going to truthfully claim that Dan never loved you, I believe you would have to believe just as strongly that your children -- when they were three and four years old -- never really loved you. Do you really believe that too?
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Old 9th July 2010, 06:34 PM   #120
Wiggle
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Re: Limbo No More

Hi Kathryn,

He so blatantly has all the hall-marks of classic male depression.

I'm glad you're setting boundaries and making your needs clear - it takes a bit of getting used to, this taking back control lark.

I agree with DT about focusing on all their negatives to get through this, and I like the analogy of a crutch. I'm aware I'm (probably) doing it with my ex too, but the anger neutalises any sympathy and makes it easier to set boundaries so heck, if it makes this easier for us...

It'll be interesting to see what he makes of this new, assertive Kathryn long-term!

How did the therapy session go? Had my first one on the NHS today.

Take care, and keep up the good work!

Aaxx
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