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Old 20th April 2013, 03:55 PM   #181
Downtown
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

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If a husband or wife has such a disgnosis, will it ever improve or will their spouses lives and their childrens lives be forever hellish?
Chosen, recent studies seem to indicate that the folks diagnosed with BPD tend to improve somewhat as they age past the mid-forties. This improvement happens even if they are not treated. What is unclear to me, however, is whether this improvement occurs in high functioning BPDers as well as low functioning folks. Also unclear is how much improvement actually occurs.

The studies show that many BPDers improve so much that they no longer are diagnosed as "having BPD." From the point of view of the spouse, however, this failure to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria doesn't mean much. The problem is that a BPD diagnosis is intended to appease insurance companies, not to help you.

Even when your spouse's BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and completely undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "no longer has BPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean that she doesn't have strong BPD traits.

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) eventually realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, when the APA committee was creating the proposed new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released in May 2013, this dichotomous approach was fully abandoned for all PDs in the draft manual. It was replaced in the draft manual by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity. Yet, due to fears that the psychiatric community was not yet prepared to implement such a change, the APA rejected the committee's proposed graduated approach last December. The dichotemous approach thus will be continued, at least until a revised manual is adopted in another ten years.

I mention all this to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no bus coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk. He can be killed just as easily by a truck, car, or motorcycle.
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Old 20th April 2013, 04:58 PM   #182
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

Thank you and yes I agree in that even if a spouse has this disorder, its doesnt thelp to know as they are still hell bent on ruining your life and the lives of your children whether they have it or not Also it seems there really isnt a cure as such, especially if the one who has it wont see that anything is wrong, and blames everything on everyone else.

It seems to me that in the last few years it crops up so much, especially in' American talk' I find, its rarely mentioned in the UK and I have never ever heard of anyone who was given this name for their symptoms. However I have known some very difficult people and as you say many can have some of the symptoms without it ever being called anything specific, and most people would call it selfishness, emotional immaturity or some such thing.

AS you say many many have character traits that are those of such a condition, but when should we be held responsible for our own behaviour? A member of my husbands family(now dead) was a very very difficult person, could be very selfish, bitter, self centered, resentful, and caused so much trouble in the family, tried to break up her sons marriages etc, and YET, if she HAD to, she could control her bahaviour IF she thought it was in her OWN interest. One of her daughters in law once told her that unless she stopped doing what she was doing, she and the ladies son were going to move away. Guess what, she immediatly stopped being so awful. She still acted badly towards her at times, but nothing like the extent she was.

It seems as if, if our bad behaviour has a name, we therefore cant help it, just like we cant help getting cancer or the flu. Wheras the rest of us are supposed to be able to control any selfishness or other not so good character traits, an act properly and nicely and kindly. Do you see what I am trying to say?
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Old 20th April 2013, 05:15 PM   #183
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

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It seems as if, if our bad behaviour has a name, we therefore cant help it, just like we cant help getting cancer or the flu.
Chosen, it may seem that way but it is a false appearance. Learning how to spot strong patterns of dysfunctional behavior -- and discuss them in intelligent terms -- does not convert that obnoxious behavior into a disease that one is unable to control. BPD behavior does not constitute a disease.

Indeed, that's why BPD cannot be cured. There is no disease to cure. It therefore is important that adult BPDers be held fully accountable for their actions and allowed to suffer the logical consequences. Otherwise, they will have no incentive to seek treatment. You and I discussed this earlier at http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/forums/sho...4723#post74723.
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Old 20th April 2013, 06:39 PM   #184
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

So they are responsible for their own bad bahaviour, as we all are, and it can be controlled, IF they choose to act.
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Old 20th April 2013, 11:26 PM   #185
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

From what Downtown says, in my view there is a clear distinction between disease and disorder. Disease can be something like tissues in the brain being destroyed by a virus and disorder means just that, it sounds like the neurons are not connected in the correct order or the way that we normally expect from a 'normal' person.

But now back to the subject of my recent postings...
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Old 21st April 2013, 12:24 AM   #186
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

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I may have a little bit of good news. The wife and I discussed the girls' dance classes, for this term, extensively. I was already prepared with what I learned about validation of her opinions and it worked. We came to an amicable conclusion and I took action only after I asked her if what I was going to do was fair, what she wanted me to do and if she was in agreement. She even said "see you" after I dropped her off for her hairdresser's appointment in town. When I took her and collected her from the airport she did not even say thank you after 4 hours as her chauffeur.

She also called me on the phone instead of just sending texts, which is what she has been doing to avoid talking to me.

Plus now, every time she feeds me I say thank you whereas before I just used to get up from the table and go away without saying anything or helping with the dishes. I used to go back to my office to work though, but still..
This is very good...keep up the good work Freddie...and watch out for MID CYCLE when the hormones start acting up. They usually settle down within two days AFTER the onset of a period. If you can make it through that, you will do a lot to create a new way of relating to each other...respect, kindness and consideration goes a long way towards mending a troubled relationship.
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Old 21st April 2013, 09:42 AM   #187
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

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This is very good...keep up the good work Freddie...and watch out for MID CYCLE when the hormones start acting up. They usually settle down within two days AFTER the onset of a period. If you can make it through that, you will do a lot to create a new way of relating to each other...respect, kindness and consideration goes a long way towards mending a troubled relationship.
This is interesting about how to relate to her during her cycles. Can you expand on this? Are you saying that if I can be in good terms with her during the peak of her period (presumably when the bleeding is at its worst, is this the mid cycle?) then I am making a connection that somehow reassures her that I am there for her when she is feeling the worst? Like when I asked her if she was feeling well to go to work? I never did anything to see how to relate to her during her cycles before. Yet another thing to learn.

Also, yesterday I did the shopping for her and I bought her some nice things like a quality wine. She complains that I am cheap and only buy the lowest priced items like nasty wines. After that, at home, she cooked me dinner and offered me sparkling wine and chocolate she brought from her country and gave me a bottle of spirit her father sent me when she was there. She laughed (or smiled) at my joke when I said she had already drunk most of the bottle herself. She has not laughed or smiled to me for 3 months.

Of course she could be feeling guilty about kicking me out of the house or is trying to sugar me if she is trying to get the OM back. The latter has failed every time. I will go after him again, if I find out they are meeting again. Or should I try to convince her and realise that this time she should end it for good herself?
I will see where her communicative attitude is coming from and where it leading to.
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Old 21st April 2013, 05:27 PM   #188
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

I have one little strategy but I do not know if it will work: the children always drift towards me (they do not enjoy being with their mum) at home, so I make an extra effort to have a lot of fun with them in a loud way that my wife can hear anywhere in the house in her isolation. Also, the children told me that the OM was boring when they met him. The idea is to show the wife that the children will never have the fun they have with me with anybody else or anywhere else. All the time the wife is at home she lies in bed or the sofa in her dressing gown using her iphone, watching videos of of musicians from her country of origin, talking in social sites and maybe even texting the OM. I do not see her smiling at any time she is with that bloody iPhone.

Last edited by freddie; 21st April 2013 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 10:13 AM   #189
freddie
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

The wife asked me to lend her 20 today. I think she does not even have money to pay for the train to go to work or buy lunch. All money gone in solicitors and court fees.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 07:40 PM   #190
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

bit of a cheek really isnt it.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 10:01 AM   #191
freddie
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

I have a request to help me interpret some of the signals my wife is sending me.

If we are now separated, in theory my wife may think that there is no need for her to tell me where she is going or what she is doing. She has not gone out socially for quite a while (except for her holiday, but she was with the girls all the time over there). She spends her week-ends lying on her bed watching videos and just getting up to do a few things. This may be the result of a hard week at work and stress.
This morning she came and told me that she was going to be late this evening and told me she was going to a birthday party of a friend I know. I could check if there is going to be a party. She asked me to feed the girls and gave me a list of things to buy in the supermarket.
Could she be so cheeky that she is asking me to do these things and go to see the OM?

To be honest, I do not tell her where I am going to or when I will be back when I go out (she always asks my elder daughter if she knows), but then again I am not the suspect here.

Last edited by freddie; 23rd April 2013 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 03:52 PM   #192
chosen
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

If she has seperated and is divorcing you, I expect that she thinks its ok to do what she likes.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 06:47 PM   #193
freddie
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

Have Forever and Raymond been seen around here recently?
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Old 23rd April 2013, 08:04 PM   #194
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

Sorry Freddie...I am in the process of moving and working at the same time.

I think that since you are moving too in a couple of months, and since she DID already file for divorce, then you need to let go of monitoring her whereabouts and NOT ask questions that do not pertain to caring for the children.

You will have to get used to the idea that she in fact is free to do as she wants on the one hand...then there is how you feel about that whilst you still live there.

The only way I could tolerate this is to not discuss anything, not give her anything, and not ask anything of her.

You should consider yourself fortunate to be able to care for your children no matter what she is doing or where she is. The more time and opportunities they have to be with you...the better for them yes?

Let her pursue her new life and everything that goes with it...I know, I know, easier said than done...makes you want to strangle her sometimes...but if you do not keep things amicable, she will use the girls to get back at you...denying you your rights and dumping them on people who don't care about them like you do.

You have children so you SHOULD tell her when you will be leaving and returning Freddie...that way you wont come home and wonder where the children are if she decides to take off because she did not know what time to count on your return. It is common courtesy to inform each other...not permission per se, just something that should be done for the girls sake.

As for the "monthly" thing...mid cycle (the "watch out"! time) starts 14 or so days AFTER the FIRST day of her period. 14 days AFTER her period starts, the hormones start to go on overdrive until her period starts again. That is how it works. I think, if I remember...that you've got another week or so before you should start 'bracing yourself".
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Old 23rd April 2013, 09:37 PM   #195
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Re: How to see our married life through my wife's eyes

Yes, I hear you but there is just one thing: as I said it before this now concerns my daughters. My wife exposed them to her affair, she took them to meet this man and now I want this damage repaired. I have already recriminated her in court for telling my daughter that she had broken up with the bugger, then my daughter being elated and coming to tell me and her best friend that our family problems were over only for her to catch my wife texting the bugger during their holiday. My wife must be aware of her huge disappointment and she will know that now I would be mostly angry for my daughter, but could she be a little considerate and end the affair for good for my daughter if not for me? (bearing in mind she does not have a bond with her).

At the end of March, when my wife broke up (or was dumped) by this man, she volunteered to come and tell me and my elder daughter that it was over. Then after that she wanted to inform me what she would do, where and until what time she would be when being late home after work. She even looked slightly concerned at my possible reaction. She had already filed for divorce.

Now if I go and ask her to tell me straight if she is seeing or communicating with the man again, is it fair to say to her: "You volunteered to tell me that you had broken up with that man when there was no need for you to tell me, now will you please volunteer to tell me if you are seeing or communicating with him again, if so, why?

I almost know already: if she gets angry and denies it, or tells me it is none of my business, I can be almost certain that she is seeing or communicating with him, or at least trying to get him back. If she tells me calmly and even slightly concerned that she is not, I will tend to believe her but I would still keep an eye.

Of course, this can take our relationship back to her being stroppy with me all the time and refusing to give me dinner and other civilities that we had achieved. So will it be worth taking the risk to ask her?

The other thing is that, if she says they are together again, depending on what she tells me about it, I am likely to go and pay him a visit at his place of work. She will think (or realise) that I fooled her, but then I would be doing it for my daughters mostly (for me and my wife too) so I would see it as being fair that I did.
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