Advice and support needed please.

[Forever]

I think that your husband's statement about the eldest not wanting to talk to him at the moment is appauling...just proves how shallow he is about the pain he is causing and how little he knows about love and loyalty. Does he expect either son to just stand by and watch their mother's heart get shredded and think nothing of it as he does?

Sheeesh!

[WishfulThinking]

Oh Forever, the more I hear of your story the more tragic it is. The pain went on for such a long time for you too. I hope it isn't as long for me, whatever the outcome. I am so glad you have found happiness again.

I can't see him even thinking in terms of divorce. I know we didn't get married in the church, but what he has done to me is wrong and he knows it. He has wilfully abandoned me and commited adultery which is totally different to the 'maybe it's okay' to make a new life with me after the same had been done to him. If he starts on that path..presumably to marry her.... he will never be able to make his peace with God and he knows it.

Originally Posted by Forever

I think that your husband's statement about the eldest not wanting to talk to him at the moment is appauling...just proves how shallow he is about the pain he is causing and how little he knows about love and loyalty. Does he expect either son to just stand by and watch their mother's heart get shredded and think nothing of it as he does?

Sheeesh!

I know. As I said I don't know what to think. The youngest isn't the most reliable source, he has his own interpretation of things. For example, eldest said he doesn't feel ready to talk to his Father yet, not that he doesn't want to talk to him full stop. I don't think he would open up to youngest much whatever he was feeling for fear a 'different message' would get passed on when he came home, also the widower was ever present so I suspect he tried to keep things as light as possible. I did wonder if he was trying to get the feel of what his reception might be like if he were to return? Maybe he is trying to build a 'normal' relationship with his sons in order to feel he is able to come home. He must know too that it is ultimately me he must talk to, not either of his sons, with regard to our relationship.

You're right about my heart being shredded too. He has not seen the pain I've gone through and has probably conveniently ignored that aspect thinking I have been able to put it all aside and get on with my life. He on the other hand has found himself in a mess...of his own making...and in his eyes at least is the one that is suffering. Yes...totally selfish, not seeing beyond his own feelings and situation.

But of course, this is all speculation again. I don't know for sure what is happening. He has told me he is not happy so we'll just have to see how this pans out.

[chosen]

WT I think that was incredibly weird for him to think that walking out on your wife and children wont affect their relationship????????????????????Of course it will because as far as they are concerned he walked out on them as well, and that is rejection. He is lucky they even want to see him.


Forever, that poor woman. Its sounds as if she has been through hell, especially as she must know about his 'fixation'. We do reap what we sow in the end dont we.

[WishfulThinking]

Originally Posted by chosen

WT I think that was incredibly weird for him to think that walking out on your wife and children wont affect their relationship????????????????????Of course it will because as far as they are concerned he walked out on them as well, and that is rejection. He is lucky they even want to see him.

I know chosen, I know.

The problem is the youngest sees everything his way and can also twist or embelish to create extra drama. It's difficult to explain really and the example I've given above regarding eldest's words is very mild. He can be mouthy and aggressive (verbally not physically) at times and of course husband knows this too and will be trying to avoid any further conflict, especially when out with others. This makes him sound awful I know, he's really a generous and caring boy, but still full of teenage hormones and a teen view on life.

He feels he has to be loyal to us both..to his Dad too simply because he's his Dad,... and won't part with much information. (I doubt he gets much from either of us though.) Every time his Dad has asked about me for example (although I gather he didn't do so yesterday) youngest has simply told him "Mum's fine"....not a word about the mess I've been in, so husband hearing this could assume I suppose that I'm not bothered...if of course he takes son's word for things rather than mine. Youngest didn't tell me either that his Dad had called in to see him on Christmas Eve..he let it slip late Christmas night when we were checking up on meeting times for the the match. His reports of meetings and conversations are selective and can be inaccurate. When his Dad asked him why eldest didn't want to speak to him, it could be he was fishing for more information, trying to get a better feel of things, rather than just expecting everything to be 'normal' which was youngest's view on the conversation.

Edit: Eldest has just come in from work and we had a little discussion, mainly I suppose about me not knowing where I am up to with his Dad. He says little but at least he listens to me. I also carefully mentionned about what youngest had said to his Dad..ie: he doesn't want to talk to him at the moment. Eldest's response was surprize...raised eyebrows and the response, thanks "xxxxxx" for putting word's into my mouth...that's not what I said at all. Just typical of the youngest of course.

When I spoke to husband a little while ago concerning eldest I told him he was struggling coming to terms with what he had done and was finding it difficult to speak to him at the moment his response was an almost whispered and quite emotional "I know". He is aware I think that he has damaged his relationship with both his sons, he did start to put feelers out about how they would respond if he came home again in (almost) our last conversation.

This is why in many ways I do wish eldest would find some time to meet up with his Dad, I would get a much more accurate report and view of things from him.

I must admit I always feel a little down after youngest has been with him..he seems to manage to throw everything husband has said to me out of the window.( I haven't told youngest anything about the conversations with his Dad about him thinking of coming home, I have however shared a little more with eldest.)

Youngest does know however that I think his Dad may come back. He is convinced he won't and also is probably trying to affirm this view of his in his own mind as well as to convince me that I've got it wrong. Who is right? That remains to be seen. I must admit though it is troubling me he is still there after telling me he needed to 'find a way out of the situation he was in.'

[WishfulThinking]

Hmmmm, so it seems in my last couple of posts I've just been making excuses for him......again.

Now I really don't know what to think. It's been a difficult couple of days. Yesterday I spent virtually the whole day saying a series of 9 hour novenas..mainly for him. Today I think the only thing that can be holding him there is free will. He is just not ready to leave just yet. I really can't think of anything else. Is he trying to leave her in such a way as to not burn all bridges? If so, that's no good as far as both God and I are concerned. I also very much doubt if the son is living there too..I have of course wondered about this from the beginning.

He has of course been lying to me for years, why should I believe anything he says now about being sorry, getting it all wrong, not being happy etc etc. Is he just trying to keep his options open as he knows deep down he has to leave her sometime if he doesn't want to condemn himself to hell?

I could take him back if he were truly repentant and had learned his lesson the hard way. Surely though if this were the case he'd be back by now? Coming back simply because he knows he has to just wouldn't work....... for either of us.

Of course, I have heard nothing from him now since his call on Christmas Day....just silence!

[Forever]

There are several options here:

You can flat ask him WHY, if he knows he is doing wrong, that he is not home yet...specifically WHAT is the "hang up"?

You can go to her house (unannounced) and see for yourself if the son is truly living there or not...as well as having a "show down" with both your husband and the OW.

You can write him another letter, or even call him and tell him that you have been in a state of torment since he left and give him an ultimatim...either he comes back now, or never.

You can wait some more, and allow for everything to unfold over the next six months or so.

I cannot think of any other options...maybe someone else here can?

I was wondering why you were so quiet the last two days...sorry that you are having such a hard time! It is truly torture, this waiting and wondering about everything with no answers.

Do you think that if you did the first three options that you would feel any better and be able to put him out of your mind especially if he then decided that he STILL would not come home? How can you believe anything he says? If he comes up with an incredible excuse, will you believe it?

You already told him that you forgave him without him being held accountable or requiring any immediate action from him to remedy this... and that your door is open to him...it is a very foolish man who would continue to take advantage of that and "play away" while leaving you in torment...but he does not know that you ARE in torment.

You are in the drivers seat here. The next move is yours...and whatever you do will be a risk is to the marriage itself, or to your own mental/emotional well being.

Remember I told you that I was left dangling like this for a year? I actually welcomed the divorce by then, and became sick in the waiting process. So if you decide to call his bluff, what will "moving on" look like? Will you still torture yourself, or will that be over for you? If you do not file for divorce, you are in effect still waiting and nothing is accomplished except making sure he cannot ever return...unless of course, he begs you.

Does he think that he can "push" you into a divorce just so he does not have to answer to God for doing so himself? Or is he so insensitive to how you must truly be feeling that everything seems so optional to him?

[Forever]

This is what I would do...I would wait probably two more weeks...that would have been a total of seven weeks if my calculations are right. Then I would gather up ALL his personal belongings and put them in those big black trash bags. I would ask my youngest to direct me or even go with me over to the OW's house (to make sure I had the right address). In broad daylight, I would dump everything on the front lawn and drive away.

When he calls to ask about that, I would tell him that NOT taking any action in favor of the marriage is the same as thing as making a negative decision against it...it is a passive aggressive stance for which you will no longer be tormented. I would tell him that you stretched out your hand and gave him a window of opportunity to repent, but he did not...so he can just stay with the OW...and he can get in touch with the boys via email, mobile phone, or going to their work.

Since you are going to have to wait anyway, then how about giving him a big fat reality check about what his "non-action" is doing to you? How about you stop making it easy for him to beat his conscience back down about what he is doing? Let HIM be the one who has to sit there day after day and wonder when the "axe" is going to fall.

[WishfulThinking]

I don't know Forever. Divorce hasn't been mentioned at all. Deep down I don't believe he wants to be with her enough to divorce me and marry her, but of course I can't know that for sure. I don't want to be the first to push for it either..not just yet anyway. Maybe if this continues...who knows.

I don't think I'm the type for confrontation, can't see what good it would do at this stage either. I know I'd be worrying I'd done the wrong thing, made things worse. I guess I'm just going to have to wait and see a little longer, and yes, that will be torture for me too.

I had a little talk with youngest last night, he is the only one who knows Granny..he wasn't too happy and I didn't really glean anything, but had to try .He got more and more irritated with me as it went on and eventually got up and walked out of the room. Never mind. It started when he asked me if I had any plans for New Year. I said no, not really, then got a little upset. I apologized, said I found it difficult celebrating New Year without his Dad. He then said, Dad's gone and that's that. The way I deal with it is just to get on with my own life and you should too. I just said it's a little different for me as your Dad has been a big part of my life for nearly thirty years. He just dismissed this with a look and a shrug.Then it went a little like this..

You don't think your Dad will ever be back do you?
No, he won't.
But I thought you said he'd soon get fed up of Granny?
He will do, but that doesn't mean he'll come home.
Why do you say he'll get fed up with her.
Because he will, she's annoying.
What's annoying about her?
I don't know, when you don't like someone you don't bother to work out the reasons why do you....and with that left the room.

I suspect he doesn't think his Dad will be back either because of what he's done, or of course because he believes our relationship was the main cause of him leaving. I do think that although it was convenient for him to blame me as he left...I didn't care about him etc...I do think he's had a change of heart about this since. No use asking youngest any more though..I'd just better keep quiet.

When he met up with his Dad on Wednesday, I gave him a bag with some mail, a few documents and a letter/note to give him. The letter was completely open, no envelope and anyone could have read it..my son, the widower, it didn't matter. It gave the address of the man he needed to send a cheque to and some documents for eldest's car that needed filling in. I did ask that he got them back to me and I would send them off. I was of course giving him an opening to get in touch again, but I've heard nothing. He could have sorted the papers too, but then I would have thought he'd let me know he had dealt with it. He's not sent them back by post either. ( I know he must have read the note as he had a phone call yesterday thanking him for the cheque.)

Also, he gave the youngest their Christmas presents, but it seems he forgot to pick them up and left them in his Dad's car. He hasn't been in touch about that either.

I was wondering whether to ring him sometime tomorrow, asking about the papers and presents, but also of course to try to get a feel of how things are progressing, how he's feeling. On the other hand, I'm also wondering if it's not just best to leave him alone. I'm not sure.

Edit: Also to mention too in the call about how youngest has misquoted eldest? I'm wondering if that too is encouraging him to stay away.
I've also sent you another PM Forever.

[WishfulThinking]

Sorry, just missed that last post Forever, must have been whilst I was writing mine.

Haha! Now that would certainly cause a stir wouldn't it!

[Forever]

Yes it would. And without a stir, water becomes stagnant and utterly polluted.

You have a PM from me too.

[WishfulThinking]

Yes, I think you're right. I'll have to do something, but will give him a little longer before I do so.

[Forever]

There was a 38 year old woman on the forum with four young children. Her husband left her and was still gone by the time she came here...he had already been gone for two years! He would go to her house to visit, have sex once in a while, maybe spend the night with her once in a while on a Holiday (for the kids sake), then off he goes again. She did not know what to do...and to this day over a year and a half later, she is still not knowing what to do...still waiting to see if he will file for divorce or not.

He has a girlfriend...even his children know this, and yet he denies having sex with that OW (she cannot prove it one way or the other) and as she waits to see what will happen between her husband and that OW, he just keeps living this double life...making no decision at all. Last I heard from her, she was going to the doctors for anti-depressants and medicine for heart palpitations that she developed over time, which makes her sleepy whilst having to work as a housekeeper and raise her children alone. I could not help her. She is frozen stiff. She took to PMing me because she thought I could figure him out...but I told her that HE was no longer the problem...she was. She got mad and I have not heard a peep from her in six months.

There is a saying: "You cant steer a parked car".

There will come a day (your choice) where you will have to put your car in "drive" and decide what direction that you want your life to go...with or without him.

These are early days, though it seems like forever being in torment. When you get used to the torment, then you are in big trouble....and when he gets used to being where he is with the OW...he is.

[WishfulThinking]

No, I see what you are saying. I do count myself very fortunate that this did not happen to me whilst our children were young. There will be no too-ing and fro-ing either. He comes home and stays. If he can't do that then he is gone.

As you say though, it is still early days and I will give him a little longer to sort something out. I'll wait for now, but would like to do it without the torment..we'll see how it goes and just when I reach the point I have to push one way or the other.

I just hope he means what he says, realizes he's made a big mistake and is not happy there. If so, then him staying there a little longer won't be a bad thing...I'll just have to try and think about it like that for a while.

[Forever]

Yes, who wants torment! But there is no way out of that until you decide what is best for you given what he does. Fairy Tale Land is when you deny what is happening to your own soul.

I would give it more time too like I told you several days ago. Then I would inform him that the door is closed and the reasons why. Let him repent and try to win you back then.

[WishfulThinking]

So...I've not needed to do anything, he's just rang. We're no further forward though, no nearer to his coming home, if anything it seems we're further away.


No reason given for the call. After saying hello, he started off asking about how I was..to which I just replied 'Oh...you know...and left it. He then asked about the boys and mentioned what the youngest said about the eldest so I put him straight. I told him they were both fine..just getting along with their own lives as usual.

He didn't become emotional at all during the conversation,(& neither did I) but he continued by saying he couldn't begin to tell me how sorry he was about what he'd done. I said, but you're still with her though. I know he said, I feel obligated in a way, I've caused enough damage, you know me.. he said he wasn't sleeping...I told him he was still causing damage though, that I was in torment and didn't think I could live in this limbo much longer.

I then said will you be willing to meet up with me to which he immediately responded of course I will. I said you tell me, just tell me when. He said I'll try to sort something out and give you a ring in a couple of days.

I then told him I'd discovered something, I said I'd discovered I loved him more than I ever knew and it was stronger than any anger, any retaliation, any pride. He didn't say anything and I then lost my bottle and quickly went on to ask him if there had been any progress with son's car.

He then said he was sorry again, that it was never his intention for any of this to happen, never. I said it has been going on for a long time though...silence. I then said, and you know, your obligations are to your wife and family above anyone else, to which he just replied quietly I know.

He then finished by saying again he'd sort something out and give me a ring in a couple of days.

So...I continue to wait..and in the meantime try to work out what to say to him if and when we do meet up.
I must admit I feel quite unsettled. I'm really not sure what to make of it all.