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Old 27th May 2009, 09:36 AM   #1
Aitch
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Time for change - but how?

I don't know where to start - I desperately need someone to talk to and this may be the place as I feel there is nobody I know that I can be open with.

We've been married 30 years. We are "soul mates" and get on very well in most aspects of life. However I have a secret burden to live with that I feel guilty about as it is my fault we are where we are.

I have always suffered low esteem and was emotionally abused by my parents. Marriage was my escape route, and though I was young, it wasn't done in haste - we knew each other 7 years before that. A few weeks before our wedding he confessed to seeing someone else. I was devastated, but he said he still wanted me, if I'd have him.

To cut a long story short, he carried on seeing her too, and even had sex with her in our house while I was there. I should at that point have laid the law down, but I was scared of losing him, so I didn't. I tolerated it as I felt it was the price I had to pay for being in an otherwise happy & loving marriage, away from my parents. It was the only downside. Eventually she met someone and married them - he never forgave her and cut off all contact. However since then he has had a very very long string of affairs. I have known about them (most, probably not all). I have tolerated them, and even covered up for him in various situations. I have made it plain that I have been unhappy about it and repeatedly things have eventually come to a head and he has sworn he will change, but he never does. Trouble is he at heart doesn't believe he is doing anything wrong. He loves me, of that there is no doubt. I am certain he has never considered leaving me for anyone else. He has always said there are loads of people he could live with, but I am the one he could not live without.

A few years ago, his latest ended up radically changing. She left her sexless marriage and went off with someone else. We had a major row about it and he swore that was it. He was changing. He had "given it up". I was so relieved. Last year I accused him (without proof) of having someone, and he denied it hotly, too hotly. Eventually I found proof and he admitted it had happened just once. I have now discovered that he is at it again full on and is lying to me. He HAS changed - he now lies and is trying to keep it secret (and failing). There are, to my certain knowledge, two on the go right now. We also have financial problems. A couple of friends have told me they are sure something's going on as the two in question are part of the same social group. I found a clue this morning that suggests there could even be a 3-some going on. If I tell him they've said so, he will simply say that there is nothing and it's none of their business anyway. If I discuss it they will (like most people in this secular age) tell me to leave him. They think it is that cut & dried.

What can I do to get through to him? I love him and he loves me but I have had enough of this. Part of me believes that because I effectively condoned it for so long, I have nobody to blame but myself, because people do not change. I cannot see life without him though. We have shared so much that is so good and have two great (adult) kids. To part would hurt everyone so badly. I do not want to part - I believe in Christian marriage - I want the good without the bad.

What can I do??
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Old 27th May 2009, 01:11 PM   #2
Raymond
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Re: Time for change - but how?

What can one say? You know it is wrong and have been putting up with it all these years. He has been unfaithful to you but you stay with him. That is not a marriage in my view. You don't ask for much in life it appears which seems to point to your low esteem, which is the problem I think. It appears that you let him walk all over you and live for the crumbs. Marriage should be much better than that.

I think you need to work on you. You are no threat to him. He can have his cake and eat it too. Things won't change until you change. We are all worth something Aitch. Why do you sell yourself so cheap? You deserve much better. Why settle for this?

I had low esteem as well, being brought up as an orphan. Through christ I don't have this anymore. How could I after what he has done for me, but thats another story.

I think you have to try and imagine life without him and take a path which enables you to value yourself which is not the same as being proud. It just means you respect yourself.

Raymond

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Old 27th May 2009, 01:53 PM   #3
Johnee S
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Re: Time for change - but how?

How can he be your "soul mate" if he continually has affairs and you continually take him back? Low self esteem and low self image is not a valid excuse to stay with him. You need to make a stand for yourself now and either lay down the law or better leave him or kick him out.

As Rayond said you need to work on you for you! Don't use your past and his affairs as an excuse to not act for yourself. Do what you have to for yourself with conviction. You have 2 choices to act or just stand by and do nothing. By acting and making change for yourself you will gain strength, courage, and excitement for taking care of yourself and demanding your needs are met on every level. By doing nothing you will stay where you are feeling what you feel and constantly dwelling on it which attracts more negatives to your life.

Take a stand now, believe in yourself, you will be very surprised to learn just how much strength you have despite your past. You survived your past and for that are stronger for it, redirect your thinking patterns and stop playing victim of this and that, just stand up and believe in your inner self; your not that little girl anymore you are a woman of power and strength, empower yourself and believe you are, don't think you are, know you are.
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Love is never wanting to lose faith, never wanting to give up, and never truly moving on. Love is knowing and praying in the deepest part of what's left of your heart that the other feels the same.
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Old 27th May 2009, 04:15 PM   #4
Ageing Grace
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Re: Time for change - but how?

Dear Aitch,

While your story is different from mine, I believe I understand where you're coming from. The first Mr Grace was serially unfaithful; for 12 years it honestly didn't threaten our relationship until he decided he was in love with someone else. Even then, he genuinely expected me to be OK about him having both of us ... I wasn't; I left him. But I got why he thought it could work. I'd been fairly relaxed about his adventures away from home, and he took it for granted that he could always have just what he wanted.

Please don't stop reading here ... he was physically abusive, too. I'd grown up in a violent home so I was used to it. I actually thought all men hit their wives. I did stop him beating me up, though - after asking my Dad's advice (I reckoned he, of all people, should know what works!). I walked out on my husband. As it turned out, I didn't even have to carry my bags out the door: the simple fact that I had rented a room and told my parents was enough to prove I wasn't going to accept any more violence. As soon as I had proved it, there was no more.

Why am I telling you this? Because I had a very poor idea of my own worth, and very low expectations of a partner. You understand that entirely, I am sure. Likewise, I understand that, even when you know your perceptions are warped, and know your partner's out of order, you feel powerless to change things ... because, essentially, you feel you're not good enough to warrant respect.

In actual fact, Aitch, respect is a basic human right. I'm not speaking parabolically: "The right to be treated with respect" is on the formal list. You don't have to earn or deserve respect; it's just something everyone needs and has a right to

I want to congratulate you on understanding there's a problem, and on identifying the root cause. To put it simply, I don't think you need to end this marriage because you'll only find another selfish person to walk all over you!! And they'll find you, like rats find rubbish ...

Before you put an end to this marriage, you have to put an end to your complicity in his adultery. If you don't, you'll never know whether it could have worked after all.

Your long-term project is to fix your self worth. It will take a long time, but you can start this very minute! Please take a look at the first pages of Yogamad's thread entitled "My husband hates my family", and then at her more recent posts in "He's leaving me" (it doesn't look like he is, by the way). See how she gained confidence, in tiny bites to start with, and how much more self-assured she is now Follow suit. You can do this.

Your short-term project is to do precisely what I did with Mr G's violence! If I'd had any sense, I would have tackled his infidelity at the same time but - well, let's not talk any more about me! I feel pretty sure the reason he's started lying to you is that he now fears losing you if he continues to rub your nose in his exploits.

Did you see that? He fears losing you.

Okay, so let him know where you draw the line ('You Stay Faithful From Now On, And You Tell Me Where You Are' would be good place). Make him face up to a stark choice. Come down on him like a TON of bricks. You may want to add weight (and credibility) to your line-drawing by hiring a PI to get stinky evidence; alternatively, if you have a therapist, you may want to discuss with them how you'll make yourself impermeable for the occasion. I asked my Dad how to stop a man behaving like him; perhaps there's a parallel in your background somewhere, who will similarly give you strength.

It's important that you seem to mean it. Tearfully packing an overnight bag to stop with a friend isn't serious enough. It must be real. Best if you don't cry, too! I'd only paid a week's rent on a cheap bedsit, but I didn't tell Mr Grace it was only for a week! I referred to it as "my new flat"

The thing is, Aitch, I believe you when you say you have a great relationship. He's been treating you like this because you let him get away with it. That's not very nice of him - nice people don't walk all over the weak, but you didn't raise that issue. I appreciate that you need to put a stop to this, in order to find out a lot of things about your marriage and about your self. So go for it! Good luck!

What do you think so far?
AG x
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Old 27th May 2009, 05:47 PM   #5
Aitch
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Re: Time for change - but how?

Thank you everyone. As you'll appreciate, the situation is far more complex than a post here can explain. I have NEVER discussed any of this with anybody before, so this is really very scary territory for me.

We both have difficult backgrounds, though of course that doesn't excuse this. I was interested in the TA (Transactional Analysis) - I have heard of it before. I'd say that we spend lots of time NOT in the adult-adult state. It's not always him as the parent and me as the child though. It can switch very quickly to him being sulky child if he is not getting his way and the result it that my guilt switch is flicked to ON.

You are right, I have to end my complicity in his behaviour - but I thought I had done that. Sadly what has happened is that the behaviour has restarted. I am sure it stopped a couple of years or so ago because he was starting to get erectile problems due to undiagnosed type 2 diabetes, so he was shall we say lacking confidence, but that's fixed now and he's 100% again. However this time he's secretive about it and very defensive if I question where he is going. I have accused him a few times of having someone and the response tends to be "oh here we go again, why can't you believe me - I have given it up!". It often ends with me being pushed to shouting point, ending up crying and apologising. It was really bad a few months ago, with many shouting matches, until I had a long talk with him telling him how he was making me feel, that whether or not he was actually having sex with A and/or B, his displays of touchy-feely with them were making me highly uncomfortable. He swore there was nothing going on, they were just his friends and promised to cool it. Well he did for a while.

Please don't get the idea that he is horrid to me though - on the contrary. Actually it'd be so much easier to deal with this if he was. He treats me like a princess really. He is affectionate, considerate of me & I love being with him - he makes me feel good and safe. He values my opinions. He has looked after me through depression & physical illnesses. He supports me in things I want to do. We share common interests. He would never physically hurt me or let anyone else do so. He would protect me totally. I must say I don't like the way he treats people who dare to challenge him though - perhaps that is why I am scared of really challenging him.

BUT
Why do I have to pay the price for this of letting him, as you say, have his cake and eat it too? I'd maybe understand if we had a problem in bed. We don't, though often in recent times it's been me that initiates things - however he's instantly willing.

As for evidence that he is having sex with them I have finally got some hard proof about the one I was less certain of and am gathering more on the other one, having discovered that I could set his msn to auto-save conversations. Until he finds out about that I can collect and save material. Then I have to work out how/when to confront him.


Sorry for the rambling. It is hard.
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Old 27th May 2009, 09:13 PM   #6
Raymond
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Re: Time for change - but how?

I think you really need to confron this Aitch when you are really sure of your facts. Dishonesty and adultery does not become a marriage and adds nothing to it if that indeed turns out to be the case.

Raymond
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Old 28th May 2009, 12:40 AM   #7
Ageing Grace
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Re: Time for change - but how?

I had to chuckle at your msn ploy, Aitch. I dislike comments such as "men can be so stupid" .... but!

It's great that you're interested in transactional analysis. If you can do a little more reading, I imagine it will be both enlightening and useful to you.

Most of us, most of the time, are blissfully unaware of how our responses influence everyone around us. It is quite astounding how (seemingly) small changes can dramatically alter the 'scripts' of our lives. I'm so pleased you read Yogamad's thread

TA doesn't suggest staying in 'adult' mode all the time; far from it! The main point is that, by being more conscious of how we're interacting, we can get more positive results. Why not just give it a go? Next time you feel your buttons being pressed, let your inner grown-up out instead; see what happens.

Wishing you well,
AG x
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Old 28th May 2009, 06:46 AM   #8
Aitch
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Re: Time for change - but how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageing Grace View Post
I had to chuckle at your msn ploy, Aitch. I dislike comments such as "men can be so stupid" .... but!
We have vnc set up and the last time I caught him and was able to confront him it was due to sitting in the same room with his laptop activity echoed on mine! Then sadly our son needed to use vnc to sort out some issues on husband's laptop and he learned that when someone's linked to yours the symbol goes black and he started watching it! I can't help feeling guilty for spying, but on the other hand I feel it's justifiable.
Quote:
TA doesn't suggest staying in 'adult' mode all the time; far from it! The main point is that, by being more conscious of how we're interacting, we can get more positive results. Why not just give it a go? Next time you feel your buttons being pressed, let your inner grown-up out instead; see what happens.
Oh, I had the thought that adult-adult was the goal, so I def need to read more about it. I think, as was said earlier, changing myself & the way I react to/deal with things is the most important thing. I already feel I have started to change as this time I am not feeling the hurt/anger in quite the same way. Previously it's been emotions like "why doesn't he love me enough/what am I doing wrong?" but this time there is more of "how dare he do this to me again". That's what gave me the confidence to break my silence even if only anonymously on here.
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Old 28th May 2009, 03:29 PM   #9
Ageing Grace
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Re: Time for change - but how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aitch View Post
Previously it's been emotions like "why doesn't he love me enough/what am I doing wrong?" but this time there is more of "how dare he do this to me again". That's what gave me the confidence to break my silence even if only anonymously on here.
Good for you Keep posting here, if it helps!

AG x
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Old 29th May 2009, 08:06 AM   #10
Raymond
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Re: Time for change - but how?

You need to break out of this Aitch and there are signs that you will. You are beginning to see adultery for what it is.

Raymond
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Old 29th May 2009, 10:51 AM   #11
Aitch
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Re: Time for change - but how?

Thanks. Yes you're right Raymond. I always thought I ought to be able to see it from his angle, that it's no big deal and doesn't diminish his love for me - and I honestly think he believes that and he cannot understand why I don't. He just sees it as a natural extension of friendship - tbh I don't think he understands what real friendship means. He lost his father at the age of 6, had to move from a tied house and his mother went to work full time. He was the eldest of 3 and so having lost the attention of both parents grew to be highly self sufficient and fiercely independent & defensive of himself as the world was obviously out to get him. He never had friends as a boy - in fact he has never really had any male friends. His first friend was his first lover - it is as if he cannot open himself up emotionally without it being part of a sexual relationship.

Many people do not like my husband as he only shows them the side of him that wears the defensive shield. I have many friends, but none that I'd call close, certainly none I would trust enough to discuss this with. He expects his lovers to be my friends & in fact most of them have been our joint friends before it started. Some have been brought into my life as friends & I later learned they were more than that. I used to think this was worth tolerating as it was protection for me as if they liked me they wouldn't want to steal him. How sad is that? One of the current two really does seem to like me, the other though seems to despise me but puts up a public front of liking me. Now I am beginning to realise it's been very handy for him to describe them as close friends of both of us - it's a great smoke screen as people would not suspect anything. But now people are suspecting but I don't think he realises - he seems blinkered.

I keep asking myself what I want and you know I am really not sure. He is so attentive and loving and such great company much of the time - and at those times I realise I really don't want to lose that - I want to keep the man I fell in love with and have shared so much with. But when he is not getting his own way in the world he can be sulky and difficult and when I read his msn it is as if he is a stranger, someone I neither know nor like; at times like that I start wondering if I could cope with leaving. It is as if I am dealing with two separate people, one who adores me and would do anything for me and another who is like a totally selfish child, wanting to have anything he desires when he wants it.

Sorry for rambling, but it does help to share even if in cyberspace.
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Old 29th May 2009, 07:47 PM   #12
Raymond
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Re: Time for change - but how?

I don't think it is very considerate to you Aitch to be unfaithful sexually. I think you are stuck in a situation and need to find your way out. It seems he wants to live some kind of swingers life. Is that what you really want? It's a long way from what a marriage should be in my view, but sex is not the only problem it seems.

He has a rejection problem from his childhood and hits out. I would imagine there is a kind of rebellion deep down in there and sleeping around may be just one expression of it. Love is the answer not more sex. Sex can give the impression of love but outside marriage it is not love, just the illusion of love, not the real love he is looking for. I do know what I am talking about, having grown up with rejection from an orphaned background. With my rejection I turned inward, withdrew. Some do the opposite and hit out.

You need to get strength from somewhere Aitch as I don't think personally that it is any life to have to live like that.

Raymond
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Old 30th May 2009, 05:55 PM   #13
Aitch
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Re: Time for change - but how?

Sharing on here has enabled me to think a little more clearly. I am beginning to think it is possible he is suffering a form of addiction but an addiction to sexual relationships rather than something like alcohol or gambling. I think his background could definitely be a trigger for it. He doesn't gamble, rarely drinks (never gets drunk), doesn't smoke, has no violent side, isn't into sports - but seems to have a deep-seated need for the gratification he gets from his affairs and from being "in charge" of whatever he is involved in. A childhood in which he was starved of affection & had no control over his life seems to fit such an outcome.

When (oh help!) I confront him, I hope this time he will finally realise his behaviour is unacceptable, that I am not being unreasonable in objecting and that no, "most people" are NOT also "at it". If so, perhaps we can explore a counselling solution. A long-shot perhaps but worth considering as I do feel the good we have is worth trying to preserve.
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Old 30th May 2009, 07:18 PM   #14
Raymond
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Re: Time for change - but how?

I agree with what you say Aitch. This lifestyle does not honour you nor God if you are a christian. Yes he has a problem but that shouldn't justify adultery. Somehow you got trapped into this for some reason. He searches for intimacy but doesn't find it because he is going the wrong way about it. The more pure and faithful one is the more the intimacy is experienced.

Let me know how you get on when you raise the issue.

Raymond
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Old 1st June 2009, 02:38 PM   #15
Aitch
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Re: Time for change - but how?

Well I have started the process. It came out of telling him about how my sister and I had a heart-to-heart about the legacy we each carry from our emotionally abusive parents and how we feel we are just beginning to take the step into free adulthood. I told him I think he carries a similar load, and that the time has come for all to grow up. He sort of admitted his current affairs but when I asked when he'd last been with No 2 he said he couldn't remember as he "doesn't keep a record". I pushed him and got him to say he didn't think it was this year - then I told him I have proof of it being recent, but have not yet shown it to him. He seemed to think No 2's not significant as it is not a new person, but the revival of a dormant relationship! He also kept saying how I have to realise none of his affairs have ever made him love me any the less and doesn't seem to understand how I've always felt not good enough. I suggested he's treated me like I am what he wanted his mother to be - always there, loving him and letting him do as he likes. He then had to go out for a haircut he booked earlier. I told him he needs to do some hard thinking about what he really wants - them or me.


===============================
UPDATE
======

Well he came back and we had a long talk. It didn't get heated, we did not row, I did not cry and that is a first. I think it surprised him that I was calm and composed. He doesn't want to lose me but did say he'd be unwilliing to move away from the area as we have a lot of ties here. The only thing is that No 1 and 2 will have to remain part of our social scene if we are not to make the whole thing public (something I don't want). So I told him outright he needs to demonstrate clearly his love for me in private and public, especially when they are around and repair some of the damage he has done me. I think we can move on from here but I don't think it will be easy.

Thanks to all for your advice and support - and if you feel able, pray for our relationship to survive and strengthen in the longer term?

Last edited by Aitch; 1st June 2009 at 09:56 PM.
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