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Old 24th March 2009, 08:01 AM   #1
rppearso
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Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

I am in the process of getting divorced, A long story of sexual and financial issues which caused me to be depressed and she eventually walked out, we both went to church and are christians. After she walked out I found myself vulnerable and started having FWB (friends with bennifits) relationships and I now have a GF I am committed too. I still consider myself a christian but I have been taking alot of flack from church members and I do not go anymore because I feel very awkward there, I dont do very well as a single person but after my first marriage im not in a hurry to remarry but it is also not very realistic for me to stay celibate either. I guess it just feels like a double edge sword, I used to not have any issues with the church teaching but it seems like they preach an unrealistic set of guidelines when it comes to sex and relationships (unless you are among the ultra lucky that marry and dont have a spouse thats a prude or has significant issues, im not talking about having a bad day becasue someone was crabby at work and you forgot to take out the trash, im talking years of depression because of serious disfunction, I dont want to go through one more month of depressoin life is to short and im sick of the overly simpistic unrealisitic advice). It almost feels like God is setting us up for failure, I get tired of the droned montra of marriage is work, I understand that but the good times should greatly out weight the bad times otherwise what is the advantage of being married, just like it takes hard work to get an engineering degree but you dont put in that hard work to graduate and work at mcdonalds. I dont feel repentant for doing something God programmed me to do because im gun shy about jumping into another marriage because he dropped the ball on the first one, of course she did walk out on me and I am commited to my GF unless she walks out on me or prudes out on me im not going to leave her and the bible does not talk about having a fancy wedding to be one so maybe that is why I dont feel guilty, I just feel bad that I get so slammed from the church, the chruch takes such a hard liner approach on this issue and is so full of hypocrites it drives me insane, I feel my personal ministry is to talk to people about the importance of sexual activity to keep a marriage alive, sexual issues are a huge contributing factor to divorce and the church seems to like to just ignore it and say crap like well your getting once a week and thats better than some guys buzzzz wrong answer, thats like saying I only get piss drunk and get in a bar fight once a month so its ok. Its like pastors I would talk to would admit it in private but never talk about it in public, what is going on here.

Also on a side note, if you could send Jesus email every day sometimes I wonder if I would want a reply, I dont really want to go to mozambique lol, I guess I might not have that fear once I finish reading the bible, I feel like I have been preprogrammed from birth with what I want to do in life but its not stuff like going on mission trips to uganda, I have tried to get on christian forums to discuss sexual topics but have been banned and am not sure how to get my point across, my GF has other married friends that have the same seeds of divorce that my marriage had and if you fix it before that bad seed grows its not a big deal (things such as the wife saying I dont like to give oral or swallow etc or because she is pregnant she is not in the mood that has divorce and broken relationship written all over it and these people are suposidly christians. The 50% divorce rate among christians is not a surprise with as prudish as some people are, I blame the church for this prudish behavior they harp on the issue of sex so much it turns women off and when they finally are married they have had this whole issues of sex hammered in there head there husband is going to pay for it and it will result in divorce, every time someone wants to get self ritchous about sex I want to slap them in the mouth thats how mad I get, all you have to say is you should wait till your married and leave it at that you dont need to say it every day like a broken record. I feel like I have a totally unsupported mission but I feel very strongly about this and if people dont wake up the divorce rate is going to climb. Not wanting to swallow your husband is not ok, I know that sounds funny but its really not when you neglect your spouse its going to build resentment and an irriversable breakdown in the marriage.

Last edited by rppearso; 24th March 2009 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 24th March 2009, 09:31 AM   #2
Raymond
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

If your ministry really is giving sexual advice rppearso then God will open the door for you. We are all different as people and you are right one size does not fit all. This is shown in nature where not one snowflake or leaf is exactly the same as another etc.

Are you saying your divorce was over oral sex? Personally I don't feel one can force any act on ones wife that they are not comfortable with. Thats part of respecting ones spouse. I find that women including my wife are far from prudes in marriage. Theres no place for prudery in the bedroom. On that I would agree. I can only imagine you come from a church that pushes a certain line, but sex is really a celebration of intimacy in marriage and can be a lot of fun as well. Have a look on themarriagebed.com for intance. Whilst I believe sex outside marriage is wrong, sex within marriage is amazing and fantastic, provided the commitment is there.

Raymond
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Old 25th March 2009, 08:05 AM   #3
rppearso
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

That was a big part of our problem, and when she did it she would make me feel miserable and tell me she felt like a whore, and no you cant force anyone to do anything and I became extremely depressed and irritable, we did the whole conseling thing but all she did was tell counselors she dident want to do X, Y or Z and that I had to live with that and I obviously was not living with it very well so instead of working on it she left, thats life. I think the church needs a serious dose of reality when it comes to sex and marriage but sadly most dont want to hear it or do anything about it and divorce is the result. It is unrealistic to ask someone to give up something that they need in the marriage otherwise they would have just stayed single. Anyways thanks for letting me vent.

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If your ministry really is giving sexual advice rppearso then God will open the door for you. We are all different as people and you are right one size does not fit all. This is shown in nature where not one snowflake or leaf is exactly the same as another etc.

Are you saying your divorce was over oral sex? Personally I don't feel one can force any act on ones wife that they are not comfortable with. Thats part of respecting ones spouse. I find that women including my wife are far from prudes in marriage. Theres no place for prudery in the bedroom. On that I would agree. I can only imagine you come from a church that pushes a certain line, but sex is really a celebration of intimacy in marriage and can be a lot of fun as well. Have a look on themarriagebed.com for intance. Whilst I believe sex outside marriage is wrong, sex within marriage is amazing and fantastic, provided the commitment is there.

Raymond
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Old 27th March 2009, 09:02 PM   #4
Raymond
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

Thinking about your situation rppearso I think you were wrong to try and force your wife into oral sex. Maybe she had issues in the past that you didn't know about. Wasn't there other things to do in the bedroom? Is oral sex that important? She probably wanted to please you in lots of other ways maybe? Maybe patience and love would have awakened her? There are lots of people who don't like os. I am sure there are lots of other things to do in the bedroom. Forcing anything would tend to put the other person off sex altogether. We are all different remember. I think the problem may have been your obsession with os perhaps? I don't know.

I have ready in your other writings how you are railing against the church, but if you have asked Jesus into your life you are also the church. The church is people not a building or an organisation. All who have come to Christ are part of the church whatever their faults. Your quarrel is surely with a few people in your church and not the whole church of which we are both a part.

It seems you have filed for a divorce because of the seperation so have not given any way back to solve your marriage problems. That is sad I think. A bit of patience may have helped in both situations.

Raymond
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Old 27th March 2009, 10:21 PM   #5
rppearso
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

I should probably clarify, I never forced anything I just was extremely unhappy/unlucky with the situation, I understand you cant force someone to do something. I would agree I have issues with particular individuals within the church but more often than not there is an inordinate amount of people in church that come down hard on people regarding issues of divorce and pre marital sex, I agree everyone comes to christ with there issues but the church seems to place pre marital sex on the same level as murder or rape and I believe that is evil and it is rampant in the church all other sin is minimized and thoes that need sex but have had a few bumps in the road are ostrisized, I cant play that game anymore. There were other issues out of the bed room as well that led to the divorce such as not alowing me as the man to have control of the finances she like to give away lots of money and so when times like this come we had no savings to live off of, I got extremely lucky and kept my job while hundreds of others around me were layed off, but not saving for hard times is foolishness.

I think you minimize the importantance of sexual needs in a relationship, if you are married and someone does not want to do it thats for life not for 2 weeks or a month .... LIFE and that was not ok with me and I was not happy and the only way she said she was comming back is if I kept going to sex addict counseling I decided right then and there that I wanted to be happy in my life so I pursued a GF and a divorce, no loving spouse would put there spouse in a position of weakness by leaving and telling them there a sex addict becasue they wanted a BJ or rim job. The people who dont like OS are not for me, the problem is we talked about it before getting married and she admitted in a counseling session that she baited and switched on me, we did all thoes things for like the first 2.5 years and then she decided she did not want to anymore and I was not ok with that she lied to me in the beginning and I was suppost to be ok with that.

Anyways my issue is with the churches hardliner approach to premarital sex, you see people going to church that weigh 300 lbs and have a ding dong hanging out of there mouth and no one says anything obviously they are glutonus but no one cares but premarital sex you might as well not even show up to church especially with your GF, I am scared to take my GF to chuch even if we are married because the church is so full of prudes and I dont want them telling my new wife a bunch of crap like OS is bad like they did to my ex.

You know what I think is sadder is 2 people who stay together for the sake of an institution and are miserable for there whole lives because the church scare tactics them into staying in the institution of marriage.

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Thinking about your situation rppearso I think you were wrong to try and force your wife into oral sex. Maybe she had issues in the past that you didn't know about. Wasn't there other things to do in the bedroom? Is oral sex that important? She probably wanted to please you in lots of other ways maybe? Maybe patience and love would have awakened her? There are lots of people who don't like os. I am sure there are lots of other things to do in the bedroom. Forcing anything would tend to put the other person off sex altogether. We are all different remember. I think the problem may have been your obsession with os perhaps? I don't know.

I have ready in your other writings how you are railing against the church, but if you have asked Jesus into your life you are also the church. The church is people not a building or an organisation. All who have come to Christ are part of the church whatever their faults. Your quarrel is surely with a few people in your church and not the whole church of which we are both a part.

It seems you have filed for a divorce because of the seperation so have not given any way back to solve your marriage problems. That is sad I think. A bit of patience may have helped in both situations.

Raymond
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Old 28th March 2009, 09:30 AM   #6
Raymond
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

Rrpearso I don't underestimate the sexual needs within marriage. I was not saying that at all.

Are you saying it's alright to have sex outside of marriage in spite of what the bible says? It is one thing not to condemn people. Jesus showed love to the adulteress and saved her from a stoning. While not condining the sin he showed compassion to her as a person. Is that what you are saying or are you actually saying as a christian that it is alright to have sex outside of marriage?

Raymond
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Old 28th March 2009, 08:34 PM   #7
rppearso
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

Im saying its evil to condemn the person, and alot of people in church find a way to manipulitivly "condemn the sin" and are really condemning the person in a round about way, no one takes into account the persons circumstances or their heart they just jump to judgement and that negitivly effects relationships. Then there is the selective condemnation of certian sin like I said in my message, someone can come in wieghting 300 lbs and drinking a liquid candy bar and no one says anything but if im having pre maritial sex I get the 3rd degree. Also I consider myself already divorced from my ex spiritually (its not my fault the state makes divorce an onerous process) and married to the person I am now with (the bible makes no mention of marriage serimonys as a requirement, my heart is not to put notches in my bed post its to find one person who treats me well and I am happy with.

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Rrpearso I don't underestimate the sexual needs within marriage. I was not saying that at all.

Are you saying it's alright to have sex outside of marriage in spite of what the bible says? It is one thing not to condemn people. Jesus showed love to the adulteress and saved her from a stoning. While not condining the sin he showed compassion to her as a person. Is that what you are saying or are you actually saying as a christian that it is alright to have sex outside of marriage?

Raymond
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Old 28th March 2009, 09:50 PM   #8
Brotan
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

I agree it is wrong to condemn the person. On the other hand the church also has to stand up to Biblical values and the Bible is pretty clear on marriage and on sex too (it does say that you shouldn't abstain from sex when married except to fast and pray if both parties agree)

Nonetheless it also says that you should love one another. I do not think it was right of your wife to lie to you before marriage about her sexual preferences. On the other hand were you totally open with her about what you expected from her before you married her? Basically marriage is a compromise - you needed to work with your wife to find ways to satisfy both of your needs regarding sex and anything else. The same will apply with your GF. Sex is about intimacy between two people and satisfying both parties.

To be honest I have been in many churches and seldom found people who condemn others who have premarital sex. Premarital sex is a sin as is any other sin. I would not expect the church just to accept it just as I wouldn't expect them to say: you lied, and thats ok with us... it isn't. But at the same time those church members should remember that they too have sinned and that God does not say that one sin is worse than another - they are all sins in God's eyes.
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Old 28th March 2009, 11:25 PM   #9
rppearso
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

What about the fact that 2 people are considered one when they have sex, from what I could find there is no requriement of a "marriage cerimony"? I was very open about what I needed, there were some things we discoverd during the marriage that I loved and she did not and I grew to resent her for discovering such pleasure and she was going to cut me off, if my sexual needs are met im pretty flexable, I compromised ALOT in other aspects of the marriage and she could not even bend alittle on the sex, performing sex acts is not rocket science. I think the last chapter on the every mans marriage book is a huge disservice basicly stating that the woman sets the tone in the bed room, maybe if you want a divorce. I feel you are very blessed if you have not had to deal with these issues and yoru church does not condenm people. I think the bottom line is I need to find another church. Also I noticed that in alot of churchs alot of people are just straight up wierdo's its almost as if conversations about manly things are forced so what if I want to listen to some mac dre and carry a 9mm and like to have a few beers and a cigar and play some halo and lift weights I also think church is to much ritual and not enough fellowship.

Anyways I think the bottom line is I just need to find a new church and leave the past in the past

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I agree it is wrong to condemn the person. On the other hand the church also has to stand up to Biblical values and the Bible is pretty clear on marriage and on sex too (it does say that you shouldn't abstain from sex when married except to fast and pray if both parties agree)

Nonetheless it also says that you should love one another. I do not think it was right of your wife to lie to you before marriage about her sexual preferences. On the other hand were you totally open with her about what you expected from her before you married her? Basically marriage is a compromise - you needed to work with your wife to find ways to satisfy both of your needs regarding sex and anything else. The same will apply with your GF. Sex is about intimacy between two people and satisfying both parties.

To be honest I have been in many churches and seldom found people who condemn others who have premarital sex. Premarital sex is a sin as is any other sin. I would not expect the church just to accept it just as I wouldn't expect them to say: you lied, and thats ok with us... it isn't. But at the same time those church members should remember that they too have sinned and that God does not say that one sin is worse than another - they are all sins in God's eyes.
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Old 29th March 2009, 10:33 AM   #10
Raymond
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

I agree with everything Brotan has said.

Rppearso your words about a marriage ceremony didn't seem to fit the other things you said. You are right there is no requirement for a marriage ceremony in the bible but is is a good thing to make the statement that one is entering marriage. The act of marriage is the first coming together sexually. Therefore one should not do that if there is no commitment to enter into the marriage state. If that is not there it is called fornication.

From what I have read of your posts your whole sexual problems seem to revolve around OS and your wifes distaste for it. I am wondering if this obsession was coming from outside through things you were reading or even porn? There seems to be something more about it than the fact that you just like OS as you were even willing to divorce over it. There is a difference between a sexual like and an obsession which could put anyone off if it was always being pushed. I don't know. That's what I'm seeing.

Maybe you are right about your church. Perhaps you need to find one with more fellowship. A pretty important part if you read the scriptures.

Raymond
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Old 30th March 2009, 02:30 AM   #11
rppearso
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

I would agree with your first paragraph as well, unfortunatly the church has taken the stance that a marriage cerimony is required before sex can occure (such as the engaged couple that wants to have sex, it would not be a sin for them to have sex just because they have not had there 20K wedding yet but yet it is touted as gospel when it is nothing more than church dogma). As for sexual frustration and sexual denial I liked thoes sexual things before porn and it is important to not minimize sexual satisfaction in a marriage or try to tie it to illigitimate things (porn etc) that would be like saying since your wife likes to be huged and kissed she must have read that in a romance novel, that is exactly the kind of misconception that needs to be taken out of marriage counseling, if someone has a sexual need that is not being met its a big deal and trying to make analogys that attempt to minimize that need is not helping anyone. Sexual neglect leads to depression and depression will lead to divorce. You can minimize anyones situation so you can demonize them but this is the very root of the problem in the church, that and made up rules that are based on church dogma. I think this can boil down to not enough people reading there bible or people taking the bible out of context or taking things to radical extremes, that is how cults are formed and it is very scary to see people behaving like that in churchs that you go to.

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I agree with everything Brotan has said.

Rppearso your words about a marriage ceremony didn't seem to fit the other things you said. You are right there is no requirement for a marriage ceremony in the bible but is is a good thing to make the statement that one is entering marriage. The act of marriage is the first coming together sexually. Therefore one should not do that if there is no commitment to enter into the marriage state. If that is not there it is called fornication.

From what I have read of your posts your whole sexual problems seem to revolve around OS and your wifes distaste for it. I am wondering if this obsession was coming from outside through things you were reading or even porn? There seems to be something more about it than the fact that you just like OS as you were even willing to divorce over it. There is a difference between a sexual like and an obsession which could put anyone off if it was always being pushed. I don't know. That's what I'm seeing.

Maybe you are right about your church. Perhaps you need to find one with more fellowship. A pretty important part if you read the scriptures.

Raymond
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Old 30th March 2009, 08:16 AM   #12
Raymond
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

I see your point about marriage. If they have sex before the ceremony then they are married.

Don't take offense about the porn. I was only looking for answers as a lot of obsession can come from things like that. If that is not the case I apologise.

Raymond
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Old 30th March 2009, 09:26 AM   #13
rppearso
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

Im not upset at you, its not like I have never viewed porn before in fact I have viewed it quite a bit in the past and still do from time to time, not that its ok but it happens. Anyways, its not just you but alot of people in these christian books jump to the conclusions that it must be porn why a guy likes something sexual as a way to justify his wife not engaging in the act, why cant he just enjoy OS because thats what he likes, I dont know if you have read these marriage books and went to marriage courses in church but the sexual side of it is really biased, no where in the bible does it say its ok to deny each other sexually, in fact it says if you do you are playing with fire, if your husband likes BJ's/rimming or for his wife to swallow she should figure out what she has to do to do it not try to figure out how to get out of it (like I said its not rocket science, it really isent). I believe sexual issues are the root of many failed marriages because spouces are trying to find ways out of making there spouse happy, it would be like if the husband kept comming up with excuses why he wont take out the trash or load the dishwasher that would get really old after a while for the wife, when a man is sexually neglected he is not motivated to come home and will slowly find other things to occupy his time because his wife frustrates him, I dont know why this is such a difficult concept for people. The church has also put a stigma on sexual topics so often times in "church counseling" they are looking at symptoms of the root sexual problem becasue he may be to embarrased to talk about it. Anyhow, it was good chatting.

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I see your point about marriage. If they have sex before the ceremony then they are married.

Don't take offense about the porn. I was only looking for answers as a lot of obsession can come from things like that. If that is not the case I apologise.

Raymond
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Old 30th March 2009, 07:22 PM   #14
Raymond
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

Following your point about marriage I was thinking that a ceremony was good as a witness to others. Some may get the wrong idea and could be stumbled so the marriage ceremony would be also for their benefit, so one has to consider that as well. It is a way of making a public commitment, not to take away from your previous points.

I still cannot square your demand for OS in marriage. It seems to me you were excercising some kind of control about it. Do it or else so to speak.

You are right about the scripture which shows that there should not be any sexual denial between married couples. Still there is usually some kind of compromise in what a couple would do in the bedroom. I don't think you can lay down the law there.

Raymond
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Old 30th March 2009, 09:01 PM   #15
clockwork orange
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Re: Marriage - Divorce ...... GF

I agree with Raymond here. It seems as if all the compromise has to be in one direction towards you. Certainly doesn't sound like you are prepared to consider your wife's needs, likes and dislikes - if she won't meet yours (and quite frankly the majority of women would likely have issue with some of what you want) then she's out. Not very "husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church" - its SUPPOSED to be sacrificial in BOTH directions.

Apologies if I offend anyone, but as a woman, a wife and a Christian I could no longer hold my tongue here.

CO
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