Site Areas
Wedding Centre
Health Club
Marriage Clinic
Chapel
University
Citizen's Centre
Coffee Shop
Admin Centre

Contents
Articles
Books
CDs / Videos
Tips
Services

Resources
Forums
Membership
Contact Us
Site map
Link to Us

Search

Take the Couple Check-up!

Marriage Week UK

Marriage first aid

Online support for your marriage

Free Tell A Friend from Bravenet


Home > Forums
2-in-2-1 Discussion Forums  

Go Back   2-in-2-1 Discussion Forums > Advice > Marriage Help

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 16th July 2011, 04:14 PM   #1
tmw52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Extreme Avoidance

I'm hoping someone will have some insight for me.

Joe and I broke up two months ago at his insistence. You can read other posts I've written if you want to know why. Suffice it to say that even he would tell you that I had done nothing wrong and that I was a good person (damned by faint praise!). He said he just didn't feel the same anymore. That was 2 months ago. Since that time, he has taken great pains to make sure he has no face-to-face contact with me.

At first, I tried "talking" to him via e-mail, stupidly hoping I'd be able to say something that would make him see things in a new light but I finally gave up. At that time, we got together just once to talk about the mechanics of splitting up. I held it together well but Joe actually started crying at one point which he later claimed was because of the dogs.

Since that time, my emails to him have been about nothing but practical and/or business-like concerns. Things like "The roof is leaking, should I call so & so?" or "You're new debit cards arrived, should I mail them to you?" Nothing that should cause any emotional upset of any kind. Once a week, I send him an email to let him know what has happened that week on the job-hunting crusade. (He's very anxious for me to get a job so I can move out and he can move back in.)

Joe's email and mine are kind of linked. We have one account ... and we're allowed 5 sub-accounts. His account is the primary account. If I go to the web to look at my e-mail vs. using Outlook, I see his email too. Once you open an email on the web, it goes away and no longer shows.

Last night, I found an interesting potential rental and sent it to my son (who is going to move in with me for awhile) and a copy of it was sent to me. This morning, I was at my son's apartment and I asked him if he'd received it but he hadn't. I probably had a typo in his email address. But no problem, I'd retrieve the link from my email.

When I view my email on the web, it always opens automatically to Joe's account and then I have to switch it to mine. Imagine my surprise when the only two things in Joe's email were emails I had sent him recently. One was a note I sent last week about a potential job in a company where I know he has contacts. It was very short and to the point, just said "I found this job listing and applied. Don't know if you still have any contacts there but thought I'd mention it just in case." The second one was the usual weekly one that just tells him what's been happening on the job front. The content really doesn't matter, I guess because he didn't even open them to see what they were about.

Joe gets a fair amount of mail. Most of it is junk, but it's always there. Which means he has recently checked his email. But for some reason, he didn't even open mine. It has been weeks since I sent him anything other than a very simple communication ... one that mentioned anything other than practical concerns so there should have been no concern that it would be a difficult email to read. And by the way, I've been very conscientious about not being nosy!!! It was just in my face today when the only two things there were emails I had sent.

Can he really hate me that much that he can't even read a simple business-like email from me? It kind of scares me because if that's true, it seems to me that he must be building up to a huge blowup. Yikes!

Another odd thing he's done. Because I last worked helping him with his business, he is listed as my "boss" for my last job and as a business reference. Until yesterday, he has always sent me a text message when someone would call him for a reference. This past Thursday, a recruiter I've been working with called me to let me know she'd be checking my references. But then, I didn't hear a word from her. So I sent a note to one of my other references, asking them if they'd gotten a call and they had. Which means that in all likelihood, they called Joe too. So why didn't he let me know that this time?

Trying to communicate with Joe has been my biggest challenge through this whole thing. And I don't mean trying to talk to him about the relationship. (Guess I should say that I don't even try to really "talk" ... it's all done through email in an attempt to make it easier for him.) I mean things like "The roof is leaking" or "Your new credit cards arrived, do you want me to mail them to you at your mothers'" ... simply household stuff. No matter what I say or how I say it ... he gets angry or takes offense. And that is not how Joe normally is or the way I've ever seen him treat anyone else.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2011, 06:32 PM   #2
Chamomile
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 816
Re: Extreme Avoidance

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmw52 View Post

Can he really hate me that much that he can't even read a simple business-like email from me? It kind of scares me because if that's true, it seems to me that he must be building up to a huge blowup. Yikes!

No matter what I say or how I say it ... he gets angry or takes offense. And that is not how Joe normally is or the way I've ever seen him treat anyone else. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Hi

Doesn't he have a separate email account (which you won't be able to see) by now? Are you in the process of getting your share back e.g. your contributions made over the years on his assets? (sorry, I don't want to keep banging on about this, I don't mean to "mother" you lol x) but I thought I'd mention this is one of the problems you raised in your other thread.

Joe broke up with you, right? Maybe, he's saying "give us some space will you?" by now looking at your emails? He does come across as if he abandoned you since he stopped loving you. Maybe, whenever he sees you (when he does) or your email, it is kind of a vivid reminder about his own mistreatment of you and his selfishness to himself e.g. guilt?

You sound like you are still very much in love with him. Maybe, he knows that and doesn't want you to raise any hope by being nice to you? Break-up is hard enough and any money he owes you, he should pay back asap imho.

xxx
Chamomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2011, 07:12 PM   #3
tmw52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Extreme Avoidance

Let me see if I can answer your questions because you raised a couple more that I can't figure out ...

Joe has a work email account that I can't see but I highly doubt he even realizes that I can see his usual one. He's not real saavy when it comes to things like that. And like I said ... I do not peek at his although it is very tempting sometimes!

I can't really make any progress on getting my investment money back until I get a job. Joe seems to be ignoring the whole situation which fits his usual method. It's just like the IRS ... he just forgets about things like that until he has to face them. As soon as I have a job, then I will tell him it's time he fulfilled his half of the obligation and returned that money to me. That's when it's likely to get nasty.

I think you may be right about the guilt thing. But darn it! Pull on your big boy pants and own up to your decisions! And besides, I have never tried to rub his nose in his guilt. I have never begged him to come back, I have never whined about my broken heart. Early on, I did try to point out how good we'd been together, how much he had to lose and suggested things we might try before making a final split. But I haven't even done that for a long time now.

The last time I sent him any communication that was more personal in nature was shortly after he'd been here and had started crying. I asked him why he was crying and commented that he'd seemed like he just wasn't very happy. Well, he got hella-pissed. He said I had no right to think I knew how he felt based on a 2 hour conversation. Well, it was more of an observation based on knowing someone intimately for 6 years but I didn't point that out. Instead, I learned long ago that the fastest way to take the bluster out of someone is to apologize to them ... even if you don't believe you were in the wrong. So that's what I did. I sent him an email that simply said "I'm sorry. You were right. I had no business thinking I knew what you were feeling. Please accept my apology."

There has been a very subtle shift since then. The amount of communication has decreased, of course. But now, when he wants something from me ... like an update on the job thing, he tries to communicate in one word sentences. He'll say "Job?" or maybe "Update"? Or if I have to ask him questions about something related to the house, he'll answer them using as few words as possible. You could be onto something with his fear that he would be leading me on but I also wonder if he doesn't feel like the worlds' biggest ass over what he's done.

Yes, I still love him. But then, I still love my husband that I divorced 14 years ago. Not in a want-him-back way but I do still love him nonetheless. Love just doesn't go away for me. I can mute it, I can transform it ... I just can't shed it.

I'm more pragmatic than most people. For instance, given the fact that my ex-husband and I were together for 20 years and had three kids together, it always struck me as being utterly absurd that he now had to treat me as if I was either a stranger or the enemy. I didn't fight him on the divorce, I didn't try to take him for even as much as I was entitled to. So why the attitude?

The same is true with Joe. We'd both come out of this situation so much better off if we'd cooperate with one another instead of fighting one another. But he seems to want the fight, the distance, the animosity. Maybe I just don't understand men.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 10:21 AM   #4
Raymond
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,409
Re: Extreme Avoidance

I find it hard to figure you out tmw to be honest. You have a brilliant understanding about comittment but given that I don't understand how you got to where you are now. What happened in your long term marriage? Did you divorce him or was it the other way around? Just trying to understand your history.
Raymond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 11:23 AM   #5
Lynn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Extreme Avoidance

I have read your posts and the one thing that jumps out for me is that you do not mention anything about yourself. It is all about your ex.
What he wants, what he might not want, what could he be thinking?

If you continue to try to second guess him you will drive yourself completely mad.
Where ever he is, what ever he is thinking is not your business.
I do not mean this to sound unkind, I am trying to say that you must concentrate on your business, what you want in life for yourself, what makes your heart sing.

I have been where you are and I still am sometimes and I truly thought I would go crazy at trying to work out why, where and who, concerning him.

What ever his reasons for the split and the reasons why communication is dwindling is his business and if he wishes it to be yours then he will tell you but until then for your own sanity you must back off and allow him to find his way and for you to find yours.

Good luck xxx
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 12:35 PM   #6
tmw52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Extreme Avoidance

I guess it is a little confusing, Raymond. When I was 17, I married my high school sweetheart. We were married for 20 years but they weren't very happy years. He was an alcoholic, a very highly functioning alcoholic, but an alcoholic nonetheless. He was also emotionally and verbally abusive. I stuck with it much longer than I should have but I didn't leave ... partly because I felt it was important to honor my vows, partly because I was scared and partly because I was stubborn. I insisted upon a separation in a last ditch effort to get him to clean up his act. Imagine my surprise when I found myself wanting to get back together and he decided he wanted his freedom and a 23 year old girl instead!

That was 14 years ago. I dated several people in the intervening years but it was 8 years before I found Joe and you know the rest of that story.

Lynn, maybe the reason it seems like it's all about him is simply because I can cope with my own issues. It's only on the issues that regard him that I reach out for help.

At the moment, my priority is finding a job. And it has been ever since the split. And now, I think I may have done just that. (Y'all keep your fingers crossed for me this week!)

I'll be really happy if that does come through but at the same time, it's going to make more communication with Joe necessary. As you probably read, he owes me a substantial sum of money and I know there's going to be some nastiness surrounding that. But even without that, there's all the usual un-coupling stuff that has to be completed ... things like separating our insurance bills, our cell phone plan, payments that come out of my account, his check that deposits into my account, furniture distribution ... on an on. It's very hard to accomplish all those things when he tries to communicate in monosyllables.

It's not a matter of backing off. It's not as though I'm trying to talk him into coming back. I'm simply trying to conduct what remaining business we have together in a calm, rational and reasonable manner. I don't see why that should be so difficult or why anyone should view that as bothering him!
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 04:14 PM   #7
Raymond
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,409
Re: Extreme Avoidance

I understand where you are coming from a bit now tmw. There are similarities with Lynn's marriage but obviously every situation is different.

It's very hard about your marriage. One cannot reason with drink. You did all the right things and lost it seems. Making a good choice is vital.

So can you say what went wrong with the present relationship? I take it you didn't get married this time?

Of course you need to sort all the details out. That is only reasonable. By his behaviour it sounds like he could be with someone else. Would that be possible? I take it that you don't want him back anyway or do you?

I hope it goes ok with your job opportunities.
Raymond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 04:35 PM   #8
Helen_uk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,531
Re: Extreme Avoidance

tmw,

Perhaps it's an avoidance issue ? Reading your last post , where you describe the financial things that are going to have to be sorted , just maybe he's burying his head in the sand... Although your e-mails to him so far have been functional he must know that sooner or later there are going to be things that have to be dealt with and he's perhaps expecting that ?

To be honest I think you've backed off far enough .. I think it's time now to press him on why he hasn't read or responded to your recent e-mails . Especially bearing in mind you're going to need a certain amount of co-operation from him in the near future.
Helen_uk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 04:50 PM   #9
tmw52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Extreme Avoidance

I have no idea really what went wrong this time, Raymond. All he will say is that he just doesn't feel the same. I've explored the theories of a clinical depression, simple emotional immaturity and/or a certain personality disorder. It's very hard to say because he refused to discuss it ... even going so far as to break up with me via email!! No, he's not a drinker and while my marriage was full of problems, until this arose, Joe and I got along really well.

And no, he's not with anyone else. All of his money goes through my bank account and I make the payments (with his money) on his credit cards so I see those statements. I've watched for hotel bills, unusual shopping, dinners for two, movies, etc. and have seen absolutely nothing to raise my suspicions.

I wish I could want him back. In some ways I do but I think that if he ever proposed such a thing, I'd back away because I don't know that I could ever trust him again. It's entirely possible that I miss the life we had more than I miss him. All the way back in high school, I heard a quote that has always stuck with me. "Perhaps it is the loss of the dream of loving and being loved that matters more than the loss of the lover themselves." That could be the case here. Still hurts like crazy.

I will start pushing him on the issues just as soon as I have secured employment. I just don't feel it's wise to ask him to put his ducks in a row until mine are.

You may be on to something there, Helen. It has occurred to me that he may be treating his debt to me much like he has treated his debt to the IRS ... just ignoring it in the hopes that it will go away. It fits in perfectly with this personality disorder thing that seems to fit him. But then, that just sounds like so much psycho-babble and I don't have a lot of faith in that. On the other hand ... I really can't imagine anyone being as incredibly stupid as he is unless there is something more to his problems than simple immaturity!

I'm really afraid that once I have that job, he's going to get real nasty and will do anything he can to try to wiggle out of his financial obligations. I'm in a really bad spot because until I'm working, I can't afford to go to an attorney to even find out my options. *sigh*
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 06:04 PM   #10
Chamomile
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 816
Re: Extreme Avoidance

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmw52 View Post

But then, that just sounds like so much psycho-babble and I don't have a lot of faith in that. On the other hand ... I really can't imagine anyone being as incredibly stupid as he is unless there is something more to his problems than simple immaturity!

I'm really afraid that once I have that job, he's going to get real nasty and will do anything he can to try to wiggle out of his financial obligations. I'm in a really bad spot because until I'm working, I can't afford to go to an attorney to even find out my options. *sigh*
Hi Raymond's & Helen's posts are really helpful.

One thing. Will it be wise to move out as soon as you get a job? It's obvious that the place you are staying is yours as much as his. I don't see the logic in "moving out once you get a job"? Who had decided this? You might need some legal advice more than any more speculations trying to make sense of Joe's motivations? Surely, there must be some legal advice you could access.
Chamomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 06:19 PM   #11
tmw52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Extreme Avoidance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile View Post
Hi Raymond's & Helen's posts are really helpful.

One thing. Will it be wise to move out as soon as you get a job? It's obvious that the place you are staying is yours as much as his. I don't see the logic in "moving out once you get a job"? Who had decided this? You might need some legal advice more than any more speculations trying to make sense of Joe's motivations? Surely, there must be some legal advice you could access.
Oh no! I don't plan to move out then. I just plan to hit him with "Now, I've done my part to get this over with, time to do yours. Where's my money?" I feel like I have to be working before I do that just in case he either physically removes me from the house, changes the locks while I'm working and/or stops depositing his check. (I'll need money to keep the utilities on.)

Joe, on the other hand, seems to have conveniently forgotten that he owes me this money and is under the delusion I'll move out once I'm working. Surprise, Joe!

Indiana, where I live, has no co-habitation laws. Getting money from Joe by going the legal route is going to take a very good attorney. I do plan to feel out a couple of them this week to see what their rates are and to get as much information without paying a retainer as I can.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 06:30 PM   #12
Chamomile
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 816
Re: Extreme Avoidance

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmw52 View Post
Oh no! I don't plan to move out then. I just plan to hit him with "Now, I've done my part to get this over with, time to do yours. Where's my money?" I feel like I have to be working before I do that just in case he either physically removes me from the house, changes the locks while I'm working and/or stops depositing his check. (I'll need money to keep the utilities on.)

Joe, on the other hand, seems to have conveniently forgotten that he owes me this money and is under the delusion I'll move out once I'm working. Surprise, Joe!

Indiana, where I live, has no co-habitation laws. Getting money from Joe by going the legal route is going to take a very good attorney. I do plan to feel out a couple of them this week to see what their rates are and to get as much information without paying a retainer as I can.
Hi

That sounds like a plan. He knows he owes you money. If he threatens you to physically remove you, do not hesitate to call the police for an assistance. I think you need to be plain business-like in this. Why on earth he keeps asking you to make deposits of his money through your bank account? It sounds very "odd" to say the least... Is he hiding his own incomes? Just be careful not to find yourself being part of any criminal activity IRS may be interested. Good luck with seeking legal advice asap. xx
Chamomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 06:36 PM   #13
Raymond
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,409
Re: Extreme Avoidance

I can understand where you are coming from now regarding commitment tmw with him just up and offing just like that. With regard to marriage it just doesn't work without commitment although if one is an alcoholic it will colour everything.

I suppose you could ask him why he left. You are entitled to know that if that was possible. It may be he lives only by his feelings and sees things as over when the feelings go. No commitment in other words. One of the essential foundations stones in a good marriage.
Raymond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 06:37 PM   #14
tmw52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Extreme Avoidance

He doesn't exactly ask me to make the deposits. His paycheck just automatically deposits into my account. And you're right ... I have thought about what the IRS would say to me but then, they don't seem to be real interested in going after Joe so I'm thinking they wouldn't bother with me.

I will call 911 if he tries anything but I don't know how much good it would do since my name is not on the house. I really can't see Joe resorting to that but then, I never thought he would flake out on our relationship the way he did either so I'm keeping my guard up.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 07:00 PM   #15
tmw52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Extreme Avoidance

You've hit the nail on the head, Raymond. It is all feelings or nothing with him.

What really strikes me as sad is that he honestly believes that is the only right way to be.

If you were to try to explain to him the idea that sometimes you stay because it is the right thing to do or that you would work to get those feelings going again or that sometimes there is just a lull in relationships or ... or ... or .... (you get the idea) he would insist that love shouldn't be work, that it should either come naturally or it's not right. He would equate that to settling for something less than a person should have.

It has nothing to do with marriage and/or the lack of it. He told me many times that he felt just as committed to me as he would have if he had gone through with a marriage ceremony. And I believe him! I don't think that having to go through a formal divorce would have changed his decision even a little bit.

Unfortunately, I see his attitude a lot in people, especially the younger generation. Maybe it's seeing so many marriages break up around them? Maybe it's unrealistic expectations set out in the media? I don't know the cause but it is becoming more and more prevalent.

I wish I could find the right words to explain the concept of working through times like this to Joe ... and, frankly, to my kids just in case it ever becomes a problem in their own lives. But I just can't find a way to do it that doesn't make it sound like you're supposed to just stuff your feelings down, settle for what you got and make do as best you can. If anyone else has any ideas on explaining that, I'd sure love to hear them.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Top

Copyright ©1999-2024 2-in-2-1 Limited. All rights reserved. Disclaimer