Q: At what point is touching no longer appropriate for just friends?

I realized that after I had written the second note. I was in such a frenzie. I'm sorry you can't sleep. Her husband was very sweet but was upset that I hadn't come to him sooner with this. What's really sad to me is that he's more concerned over losing his best friend than he is over the betrayal. He thinks it can be stopped and we can all be happy, trusting buddies again. I think I've truly forgiven her but I can't see a picture of her that I don't have that cursed note rolling over in my head. Gotta get off to work. Have a great day and . . . maybe you can take a nap? I love them but seldom get one.

[Raymond]

I think now that he knows there are more safeguards built in to prevent it ever happening again with his wife. Obviously it will take a bit of work and forgiveness on your part to mend the relationship, but things have changed I think.

I really believe I have forgiven her and I pray for her marriage but how am I supposed to be around them and not wonder if he's dreaming about her? I forgave once, even had them over to dinner a couple of times, and then the cursed note on FB happened. As she has said, she didn't do anything. But she never did anything to stop it. I'd never trust her and would be uneasy around her so what sort of relationship would that be? I want no part of it.

[chosen]

Forgiving someone doesnt have to mean that we see them, or that a past relationship has to be back to what it was. If you feel uncomfortable around her, then dont be around her.The more your husband sees her the longer it may take him to stop thinking of her in the wrong way.In your place I would want to avoid her, at least for the time being. If her husband and your husband are friends, and her husband still wants to keep this friendship then he can come to your house alone, or they can go out alone together at this time.

Maybe, one day you can all be friends again, but that may take a long time.

[Forever]

Jim's Darling,
Chosen has hit on an excellent solution. Just the guys, out by themselves without MFL, or having him over to your house without MFL. I had a feeling that he would eventually figure something out, but this whole thing is not your fault. You have been traumatized by that inordinate relationship and handled it the best way you could.

Additionally, MFL's husband will get his own take on Jims behavior once he spends time with him around other women...he will see him in action through a different lense...especially after his discernment attena's have been raised by this. I am 8 hours behind you I think? In USA...California.

Another thought occured to me. I was married to a cop for twenty years. He was cold, distant, and totally uncommunicative. He loved the few friends he had far more that he would allow himself to love me...and I knew it. He walked away from our marriage and four children without so much as a blink, but grieved the loss of one of his friends for years. This "friend" put the "hit" on me over and over, so I personally ended our friendship with him for that reason, which, my ex husband deeply resented, so much that it ate away at him for years and was the primary reason he left.

I thought I was doing the noble thing for our marriage, he thought I had robbed him of something far more valuable than me. Could that be a part of what is happening to MFL? Does she feel loved or more like a utility in her marriage? If that is the case, her husband will put ALL the blame for this on HER, rather than taking a good look on how Jim was behaving towards her, or how she could have been sucked up into the attention he lavished on her. If she is starving for love, attention, affection ect. then she is very vulnerable....and of course, Jim knows it and takes advantage of that.

Her husband will likely do anything to salvage his relationship with Jim, because if I have it right, he values that more... maybe even at the expense of how you feel having to be around his wife. Dont stand for being around her and especially, Jim. Do what is necessary to save your marriage, and leave MFL and her husband in the hands of the Lord. If there is any backlash or resentment from Jim, you will have to deal with it. He cant be the friend of all, and at the expense of you, especially when it was his own behavior that caused so deep a hurt and breach of trust.

Forever, I'm in Texas so I guess I'm a couple of hours ahead of you in time.

Thank you so much (and Chosen and Raymond too) for your responses. You not only help me to purge my heart but you really do open my eyes to a lot of things I hadn't thought of. MFL's husband is quite a different sort of man. While he and Jim have been friends for years and have traveled in the same circuit, Jim has many friends--her husband has Jim. He told me last night that Jim sort of keeps him "grounded." In our conversation, I did all I could to keep the blame off of her and, actually, I did what I could to defend Jim too. However, I don't think (and I ernestly pray that I'm right) that he cares more about Jim than he does her. I could be wrong though . . . please pray for them.

Jim called me last night after I went to bed. I told him I had talked to the husband and he said we'd talk after he gets home tonight. He knows me well enough to know I'm not going to lie so I'm sure he knows what I told the man. Jim's not upset with me but, as I said before, I believe he's contrite. He's called me three times today and he's not a person who loves to talk on the phone.

Thank you again for all your advice. I pray that your fasting and praying is getting the desired results. I wish I were so eloquent with advice as you and could help you as you have me but I do pray for you and thank God for you.

[Forever]

Well, this might seem like a rather stupid question, but I have been wondering if you would indulge me. If you did all you could to keep the blame off of MFL...and did all you could to defend Jim when speaking with the husband, what did that leave him thinking? I am a bit concerned that it may have resulted in minimizing the situation and perhaps everyone will just slowly get back together as if nothing ever happened? What exactly did you say to him then?

Thank you so much for your prayers, time will tell if the fasting and prayer will have the results that are best for my husband, myself, and for what the Lord wants.

OH, MY!! You could be right! I told him the whole story and left out nothing but added that MFL had not responded but neither had she done anything to stop it. I made it clear that it was me with the problem there because I would never get past the fact that she was never my friend. A friend of mine wouldn't have let all this go on. I also said that Jim didn't really think that much of it--he's had a different sort of life with a different sort of values. But I think I also made it clear that their friendship in any way, shape, or form was over. Jim assured me of this too. I so wish it could all just go away for good.

[Raymond]

If Jim is contrite and has assured you that his friendship with mfl is over, that is a good sign. As Chosen has said forgiveness doesn't necessarily renew a close relationship. It just keeps you from getting bitter and revengful. I think you have so let the light in from all angles that it almost seems impossible for it to ever happen with mfl again.

Forever, I think of you often and how much you have helped me through all of this. Every time I think of you though, I say a prayer for you and your husband.. I would think a husband would have to love, adore, and appreciate a wife who would do so much for his love. It's so admirable and beautiful.

I'm afraid you may have been right when you said that my defending MFL and Jim to her husband “may have resulted in minimizing the situation and perhaps everyone will just slowly get back together as if nothing ever happened." I had hoped it was all behind us forever but yesterday Jim told me he had talked to the husband. I don't know who called who but it could be that he heard that Jim has had a couple of surgeries and is recovering from them. The man was offering to help him get our lawn tractor home from the shop and told him that whatever he might need, he’d be there.

I guess her husband is going to just blow it all off. I would think he would be highly indignant that his wife has been hit on by his best friend (if he really believes she was and he did make one remark to insinuate as much to me). I have absolutely no problem with the guys being friends though; I just don’t want it all dismissed.

Another strange thing—I received one of those “forward” emails from her. I don't know if she meant to send it or if she just sent it to everybody on her list and I'm still on it. It was nothing personal though, just usual forwarded stuff but I don’t want her to think I ever want to be her friend again.

I have another concern too. She, her husband, and Jim ride horses for a city's "Sheriff's Posse" (the horse patrol at city events and ball games). I don't do it though. Furthermore, she is more active in it than her husband so sometimes she goes without him. They usually ride in pairs so she and Jim would often team up. There hasn’t been an event in a while but they will start up again. Any advice?

[Forever]

Hi JD,
I am grateful for your prayers and do have some advice for you. It's okay to accept help from Jim's friend...as long as it only between the two of them and at your home. As far as the Posse goes, those days are over for Jim. You are going to have to have a talk with him before the events so you and he can get on the same page regarding that...otherwise, if you wait until the event is in full swing and then spring it on him, you will likely encounter some resistance and it wont be pretty.

The email forwards can be expected because they go out to everyone on the list. If you felt like it, you could ask to be removed from her "forwards".

I dont see any reason why you cannot contact Jim's friend again and ask him if he was clear about the boundaries....that there is a no contact rule in force and that it includes social events. What do you think?

By the way, I cant remember, but do you have access to all of Jim's communication accounts...email, phone, cell FB? If not, you could tell him that you need to have those things until your trust is fully restored and hope he understands. Of course, that wont curtail him opening new accounts that you are not aware of, but it is a start.

Hello, Forever . . . I hope things are well with you. I truly appreciate all the advice. I have thought and prayed about it and have decided to just sit on things for now. I don't have access to all his communication accounts but don't want to ask him for them either. We have different cell phone accounts because we both had them before we got married and the home phone doesn't have caller ID. Since he considers the whole matter settled, I'm holding out in faith. Furthermore, I believe MFL will never want to be around me again so I doubt anyone will try to be doing things as couples. She told me she would cut all ties and I think she's good to her word and don't believe she'll allow communications from Jim ever again. She really is a decent woman and she just more or less denied to herself the implications of what was happening because she liked the attention and got caught up in the titillation of flirtation. Jim talks to her husband occasionally and has told me that she and he have been going places and having a great time together. Who knows--maybe all this has helped their relationship. I pray so. Thank you again and please continue praying for us as I will for you.

Update. . . . She said she was out of our lives and I thought she was good to her word but I guess not. Sheriff's posse rides tomorrow night and her husband has to work so he calls and asks if Jim could carry a horse for her. Jim did ask me about it and before he would tell her husband he would and what could I say? He also said he wouldn't be riding with her but he'll have to be with her to saddle up. I hate this so badly. I don't want it to all start up again.

[chosen]

Hmmm......isnt there someone else she could ask?I think that maybe you could have suggested that she ask another person who was going, and if not, she could not go. Just my opinion.
Just that as you say, you dont want this to lead to more.
Now that you have agreed though, could you make it clear that this is a once off, and you really dont want this to happen again?

[Forever]

Any reason you cannot go too? You can help her saddle up.