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Old 7th November 2004, 09:01 AM   #1
Sierra
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There is no god

I'm sorry. I know this is hard. There is no god. There is no invisibile man who watches everything you do.

If all the people on the planet were reduced to 10 people and all the ratios kept the same, only 3 of those 10 would be christian.

"God" is not going to send 70+% of his "children" to "hell" just because no one told them about him.

Look up at the night sky and marvel at the amazing random chance that put you here. Appreciate each day. Its all you have. When you are gone, you are gone.

If you are lucky enough to beloved by someone else, don't squander it. True love is not that easy to find and should not be casually thrown away...even if the "feeling is gone". Get it back. Its all you have.

Dave
 
Old 7th November 2004, 01:48 PM   #2
Dave
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Re: There is no god

Dear Dave

Thanks for sharing your personal viewpoint - there's room for all here, and we respect your right to hold your views - though we may not all agree.

Your statistics are probably about right on a global scale, though here in UK in the last census, more than 7 out of 10 declared themselves Christian, and less than 15% said they had no religion. On a global scale most people believe in some form of God.

I am certainly not going to try here to argue logically for the existence, or non-existence of God - many greater brains than mine have written many great tomes on the subject, and none can prove the point one way or the other.

What I will say however, is that for those who do profess a faith in a spiritual dimension to life, and God, it brings hope. A universe that just happened along by chance (why??) is a bleak and cold place, in which the only logical laws are those of survival - why care about anyone else, or anything else? What for?? A universe that exists to show the shear beauty and magnificence of its creator, whose whole nature is holiness and love, is a place where there can be a purpose to life, to relationships, to all of existence.

Your last paragrapgh is strangely poignant. True love is what I am offered, true love without any cost or expectation of return, true love that will lay down it's life for me. As you so rightly say (even to yourself I suggest) "Get it back; it's all you have." It is.... it's the love of Jesus

Dave
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Old 8th November 2004, 03:54 AM   #3
Sierra
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I know its hard.

Dave,

I know its hard. Its a hard cold thing to face. But thats it.

You say without god life would be about survival. Is it not already? Why is that so hard to accept? We all compete - for jobs, education, love, money....everything. There is no supreme being operating. Just because something breaks your way is not proof of god, nor if it breaks the other way proof of a "devil".

3000 people died on 9/11. "God" did not lift a finger to save a one of them.

Lots of things offer hope. A new dawn, as pretty and inspiring as it is is no proof of god.

Its fun to sit in America and watch when a tornado roars down a street destroying all the homes on one side while leaving those untouched. Those with the untouched homes will get on TV and tell us that were it not for the grace of god their home would have been destroyed too. Then why did god want to harm the other homes?

Religion is fine. Believe if you wish. The problem is that few believe in isolation. Remember, the bible tells christians to spread the word. That translates into me having christian beliefs and morality forced upon me.

I respect your beliefs. If its what you need then have at it.

Dave
 
Old 8th November 2004, 08:47 AM   #4
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Re: There is no god

Dear Sierra

I'm sorry if you have had a run-in with one of the more closed-type of Christians.

Please can I say, just for the record, that over the years I have found working with and knowing Christians a pleasure.

Not being a Christian, I find much of what they say illogical, riddled with contradictions and at times plain ignorant of basic science.

Then I look at what they do, as opposed to what they say, and I find people who are willing to give what ever aid they can without question. Some of them are more evangelistic, but I have never experienced any of them making aid conditional on agreeing with them.

So whether I hold a set of beliefs they approve of does not seem to matter; it is just lucky for me that they do hold those beliefs because then they do things such as setting up websites, running soup kitchens, creches, visiting me when I am ill and being prepared to deal with all the people I would run a mile from.

Or if it isn't plain luck, it could be an argument for the existence of God.
 
Old 8th November 2004, 05:27 PM   #5
Sierra
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There is no god at all

Couldn't it be that some people are just kind and generous. Regardless of what motivates them some people will reach out to others when others won't.

When a marriage ends it is not a sign that a "devil" crept in. If a marriage works it is not proof that "god" smiled upon them.

Life is about two things and two things only - choices and chance.

When a hopelessly retarded baby is born "god" has not sent anyone a "special gift". When a person dies "god" has not "called them home" because they were just too dammed beautiful to live any more.

People can rationalize anything. Its in there that god was invented. Everything MUST have a reason and a purpose, right. I mean, when your beautiful child dies suddenly it just couldn't be a sad accident. I just must be "god". He needed her.

What kind of a "god" would kill a child?

I don't have any silly misgivings. I am kind to those around me because I chose to be, not for reward points in some imagined afterlife. I don't see purpose and meaning in everyting....some things just are. There is no "heaven" waiting for me. The only way to be immortal is to live in the memories of those around you.

Love your wife and your children. Write yourself into their memories and hearts and in some small way perhaps you will slip the bonds of your ultimate death.

"God" is not watching or waiting for you. Make sound choices and if random chance operates in your favor perhaps you will be around here for a while.
 
Old 17th January 2005, 05:33 AM   #6
pause for thought.
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Cool Re: There is no god

Surley if the whole point of god is simply faith then you have to have children die, and one side of streets destroyed.
3000 thousand people will die on the roads this year in the UK and god will not lift a finger to help them. But then thats where faith comes in is not? Choice and chance? A choice to believe perhaps, and a chance that god does exist.
Your problem sierra is that you are trying to humanise god into your HUMAN viewpoint. God is god. We can never understand the workings of god because of human viewpoint. If you could humanise god he would not be god He'd be man.
Hardly worth worshipping.

And you speak as if you have some concrete evidence that proves your perceptions (and ironically beliefs) to be facts. Show me it and I will agree with you.

But I leave you with one final thought. Every single race of humans since we began has worshipped a god. Every single one. All these races were once upon a time totally unrelated, but they all still believed in a god, whether it be a dog headed man, a shark, an invisable prescence or just the sun itself. Why? If there is no god why has there never once been an atheist race of humans? Simply coincidence??
 
Old 29th January 2005, 09:54 AM   #7
Sierra
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Got that.......but

You are right. Every society worshiped something. And according to the bible, all that existed before 0036 (or threabouts) went to hell. Thats a lot of people.

Right now only 30% of the people on the planet are Christian. That means 70% are going to hell.

Think about that.

There has never been athiest race of people because only in the last few hundred years has man understood how the world worked.

There is still a flat earth society.

They have been around a long time.

Doesn't make them right.

D
 
Old 30th January 2005, 09:32 AM   #8
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Re: There is no god

Dear Sierra

I'd be interested to know where you are 'coming from' on this one.

The problem of the existence of God rightly interests people such as Archbishop Rowan Williams (it's his job, innit?). But the average citizen can get by without bothering about it - there are plenty of more immediate problems.

Writers such as Richard Dawkins become very excercised by the issue partly because their job (extending public understanding of science) has historically been at cross purposes with elaborate theology. They also have a strong instinctive reaction that were beliefs are held on irrational grounds, bad things can follow.

The current unlucky inheritors of this tension would be the pleasant and professional science teachers in the USA who are now at loggerheads with pressure groups who want to present creationism as a scientifically valid theory.

(I have no sympathy with that - creationism bears the same relationship to science as astrology bears to astronomy.)

It would help me to have an idea of where you are on this spectrum, especially why you see other people's belief in God as something which prevents them from grasping direct moral truths which should rightly guide their actions. (Have I understood your position? My apologies if I've misunderstood.)
 
Old 3rd February 2005, 07:59 AM   #9
Sierra
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Here it is...

Ok,

First of all, I don't "not believe". That implies that there is something real to believe in and I chose to ignore it.

I actively know that there is no god. None whatsoever and there never has been.

Most people worship a god because they were taught to worship one by their parents and peers. Even my mother tried this but it did not stick. Even my teens I could see the hypocracy and the science was undeniable.

People use "god" as a tool for understanding things they find difficult to face. They use religion as a means to wash themselves clean of things they don't wish to acknowledge without actually having to do anything (ask forgiveness).

It would be better to treat each other better than to apologize for it in closets.

The universe could not possibly be counstructed as religion tells us. It is impossible for it to be that poorly designed.

D
 
Old 3rd February 2005, 12:03 PM   #10
John
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Re: Here it is...

Hi Dave,
Thanks for your interesting thoughts. I can very much empathise with your distrust of organised religion as being a cultural-sociological phenomenon, handed down through the generations. I agree that often the institution of the church is full of hypocrisy and confusion. And science does appear to raise some questions about the origins of the universe that are hard to reconcile with the Bible.

However, as a Christian I find myself disagreeing with a number of the conclusions that you have come to from looking around at this world in which we live. I don't think that I will be able to convince you through philosophical or scientific argument about the truth of the God in whom I believe. I wonder whether you might be willing to do something that I think you would find instructive and useful: to read an account of the life of Jesus and report back to us here what you conclude. If you were willing to do that then perhaps I could have a go at some of your objections to the Christian faith.

Mark's gospel is the shortest, and can be read in about an hour. It's available online here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=1&version=31

There are two key questions that need to be assessed, on which the Christian faith stands or falls:
1. Who did Jesus claim to be and what did he claim to be able to do?
2. Are his claims justified and believable?

If you were able to answer those two questions from reading Mark's gospel then I think that you might understand a bit better where Christians are coming from, even if you still don't agree with them.

If you would like to set a similar exercise for me about the Atheist faith, then please feel free!

Let us know how you get on!

John
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Old 5th February 2005, 08:35 AM   #11
Sierra
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I don't have time

Ok,

I don't have time to read all of that and I can assure you I would draw nothing from it. The bible was put together by the coucil of Nicea so "Jesus" isn't supposed to be anything other than what served their interests (at the time).

The point is that most people believe the bible was some inspired work translted and passed down (manipulation free mind you) since about 500BC.

The reality is much different. I can show you today different versions of the bible which say either "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shat not murder". Big difference.

You can not escape the fact only 30% of the worlds population are christian. The other 70% believe as steadfastly in their faith as christians do.

Christians are not "right". Muslims are not "wrong". Its all a belief system. Buffet style. Take your pick.

If there is a message or meaning in life at all it is that for a brief time we are here. We can accomplish or not but in the larger scheme we are nothing. Shocking as it was the world has gone on nicely since 9/11.

If you need religion then I reach for it. If it serves you then embrace it. But know that many many of us need or want not.

I am immune. I love my wife not because I am commanded to, but because I choose to. If I wrong you as my neighbor I will apologize to you, not a priest ina closet somewhere.

If "god" is so great and powerful, why is he so concerned about what I do on a daily basis?

Life is full of possibilities but we are on our own to live them.

D
 
Old 5th February 2005, 10:58 PM   #12
John
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Re: I don't have time

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the interesting points that you raised. I am sorry that you don't feel that you have the time to read all that. I think that you would gain a lot by doing so, especially if you have never done so before.

On a factual basis, I am afraid that you are wrong about the council of Nicea. That council was held to decide about the 'Arian heresy', questions over the divine nature of Jesus. However, the council of Carthage (397AD) was important in contribution to what we have today in the Bible. But we must be clear what that council was doing: it was affirming what had been the recognised collection of Scriptures for several hundred years. They were not giving the Bible authority, they were merely recognising the inherent authority that the Scriptures had (because they were written by Jesus' 12 apostles and close friends). For example Irenaeus (130-200AD) listed an almost complete selection of the New Testament books (those that people regarded as authoratative, since they came from the apostles) well before any councils.

The manuscript evidence supporting the Bible is vast compared to any other ancient literature. I don't know the figures off the top of my head, but scholars agree that what we have today is what was written thousands of years ago. There is more manuscript evidence that Jesus was an amazing historical figure that there is evidence for the existance of Julius Caesar - and I'm sure you don't doubt him and his accomplishments!

Scholars cannot deny the fact that the Bible we have today is essentially the same is when it was written. It's the truth or fallity of the writings that must be considered.


Your next point about only 30% of the world being Christian... At one time, everyone thought the sun orbitted the earth. That was, until a man name Copernicus realised that this wasn't the case. Just because he was the only one that believed this didn't make him wrong. Truth is truth whether we like/believe it or not! The same is true about Jesus: if he's God, then it doesn't matter if 99.99999% of the world don't believe him - he's still God!

If you don't want to believe that Jesus is God then that's your choice. No one is forcing you to believe. I was just encouraging you to read Mark so that you could make up your own decision rather than just going on others' opinions and misinformation. Perhaps you don't consider your eternal destiny important enough to sit down and consider Jesus' claims for an hour?

The problem with a buffet style approach to religions is that it presupposes that they're all false and actually just a psychological crutch, rather than based on some external reality. I find this deeply offensive, as does God. Christianity says Jesus is God. Islam says he isn't. They can't both be right! They might both be wrong. Either Jesus is God or he isn't. Each of us has to weigh up which religion we think is true.

One day, we'll see which one is true. I believe that this will be when Jesus returns in his glory, then everyone will see that he is indeed God. God is great and powerful. You may choose not to believe in him, but I think that one day you will have to face up to reality. He is being patient now, giving us a chance to turn to him. He is our creator and deserves our full worship, since he made us. He has the right to call the shots, to determine how we should live. He's given us a chance to choose how we will live. If we choose to reject him and not thank him for all his good gifts (like life!) then he will eventually reject us, withdrawing all his good gifts from us (so there's won't be friendships, fun or anything like that in hell).

In fact, all of us by nature reject God. That's why Jesus had to come. God loves his creation so much that he chose to let his own son die so that we might have the opportunity not to. That's why Jesus went to die on the cross. God didn't want us to die, so anyone who puts their faith in Jesus has had their rebellion against God forgiven. Basically there's been a swap - Jesus died, taking the punishment I deserve, so that I don't have to die and face God's judgement. That's why the message of Christianity is one of good news. It's not all about rules and laws, but rather about being bought back into right relationship with the creator and ruler and judge of the universe. This is validated by historical facts, not just by someone's philsophising and thinking. This is why the person of Jesus is so important and worth considering.

I hope that I've managed to address some of your points. Please forgive my someone direct style - I'm typing this quite fast as I'm in a hurry. Please let me know what you think!

Thanks,
John
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Old 6th February 2005, 04:33 AM   #13
Sierra
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Re: There is no god

I appreciate your candor. I expect people to defend their beliefs and be open to liberal, pointed discourse. Freedom is built in such way. The administrator hates me, but I have never been profane........still............

The purpose of the council of Nicea was to declare an authentic truth. Every book they chose not to include was declared heresy. They thus created a version they approved of. That is called editing.

If god existed he did not need mans help to get his word out. The "church" in all of its forms has been the greatest detriment to man of all time. Think of the vast wealth stolen over the centuries as the ignorant were billed for their salvation. There mere fact that the vatican exists and did so at a time when most people lived in filth is an abomonation.

The mere fact that "god" would allow men to burn other men and women at the stake for crimes such as believing that the earth orbited the sun is unforgivable. If he existed I would have no part of him for that alone.

Frankly, you have to decide whether the bible was written by god and is therefore infallible or what written by men and it therefore a story. The two groups are mutually exclusive. For instance, do you believe as the bible tells us in Leviticus that:

No beard trimming (Lev. 19:27)
No clothes of two fibers (cotton/polyester blend for instance) (Lev. 19:19)
No eating of shellfish (Lev. 11:10)
Slavery is ok (as long as they are non-believers) (Lev. 25:44)

And then, when we catch people (especially those at the shopping malls) working on sunday, we must immediately put them to death. (Exodus 35:2)

I think you get my point.

These are either unavoidable commandments (the infalible bible theory) or they are not. If they are not, then the bible is just a storybook. Period.

Did you ever wonder about the nature of "god". I mean, if he is so powerful and has the physical ability to create the universe vast as it is, with all the planetary bodies and what not........why is it so important to him that people "worship" him.

Don't you think such a being would have a more important agenda.

Lastly, believers enjoy a singularity in the universe. Its earth, heaven, god and thats it. Did you ever ask yourself how all that would change if we got a radio signal from another galaxy (or even found bacteria on mars) for instance? What if we had poof of intelligent life elsewhere.

Did god create them too? Kind of blows the singularity thing dosent it.

There must be live out there somewhere. Its a good bet they are not christian.

D
 
Old 7th February 2005, 01:38 PM   #14
John
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Re: There is no god

Thanks for another good reply with some interesting thoughts. I'm sure that the admin don't hate you, but perhaps your negative attitude to the aims and values of this site does bring you into some conflict, which could be avoided?


Let me repeat again: the council of Nicea had nothing to do with deciding which books were "in" and which were "out" in the Bible. It was all to do with deciding a question of doctrine. For a summary see here, or do a Google search:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine...andt/nicea.htm
So it had nothing to do with excluding or including books.

You may be thinking of the council of Carthage, which I referred to in my last posting. Books that were not recognised as having apostolic authority were not automatically declared heresy - they just weren't given the authority that those included in our Bibles were. Indeed, 'The Shepherd of Hermas', the 'Didache' and a number of other books were included on their list of recommended reading, even through they weren't classified as authoratative and infallible.

As for your proof that the Bible is infallible, I would like to add another quotation to bolster your point:
"There is no God." (Psalm 14:1)
However, to take such a brittle and narrow view of the Bible's infallibility is to completely miss the point of literature, context and history. Does Psalm 14 really say that there is no God? Unsurprisingly, it doesn't: 'The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." ' This simple and facecious example must teach us though that we must be sensitive to the genre and context of the Bible's writing before we jump to quick conclusions.

All the quotes that you have made are from the Old Testament Law, which was given to the theocratic (ie God-ruled) nation of Israel. Clearly things have changed a bit since then. For starters, Christians no longer live in a nation-state! While the questions of how to interpret the Old Testament Law are too long and involved to go into, I hope that you can see that just because I believe the Bible to be God's infallible word to mankind doesn't mean that I will go and kill everyone out working on a Sunday (and besides the Sabbath in the Bible is a Saturday anyway!). The fact that Jesus has come means that we must read all of the Old Testament 'through Jesus', as it were, using him as a lens. Jesus came to fulfil the law, he says, so that Christians today are no longer bound in the same way to the Old Testament Law, but rather to a person, Jesus. Which is why I keep on coming back to him and especially the accounts of his life. Only after we have come to know and understand Jesus will we ever be able to understand the Bible - as he says:
"[speaking to the Jews about the Old Testament] These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39-40)


I agree with you that many abominations have been committed in the name of the Christian church down the centuries. Many things that Christians ought rightly to be ashamed about. However, I am not trying to point to the church or to myself and say how great we are: we are all fallible human people who have, do and will make mistakes. I am trying to point you towards Jesus, as he is the only one who truly and faithfully represents God to mankind. Make decisions based on his witness, not on the witness of Christians from the last 2000 years.

Do you really think that God gladly lets the world continue out of some sadistic pleasure? To think that is to have a view very different to what the Bible says about him. The Bible shows God as a perfect, holy and pure God, who cannot stand rebellion against him in any form, whether it's outright rejection of him and his character, ungratefulness for the life and creation he has given us, mass murder, burning people at the stake, or just a few little lies or unfaithful thoughts about other beautiful women in our hearts. They are all offences againt him and we should be very grateful that he has not punished us for them straight off. He gives us a chance to turn back to him and seek his forgiveness, rather than judging us the moment we fail to worship him as he deserves. Who could stand before a perfect God? He's also a God of love, which is why he gives us this second (and third and fourth, etc) chance to turn back to him. As the Bible says:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise [to come and judge], as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. (Romans 2:4-5)

God hasn't bought his final judgement on the world yet as he wants people to seek his love, mercy and forgiveness. If you are worried about God's justice then you shouldn't be: the day of God's wrath will come, and we will see the full extent of his justice.


As humans we have the gift (or perhaps curse!) of being able to hypothesise and philosophise about the nature of "god". But in the end, that's all our human ideas our: hypotheses, philosophies and speculation. If we want to know about God, we have to do it on his terms: in the Bible, we see that God is (amazingly!) interested in us human beings. We are the bearers of the image of God in creation, so it's right that he should be concerned about our behaviour. To take a simple analogy: if you have kids, you would expect some respect and love from them, since you are their father and you bought them into the world. Now of course this doesn't always happen, but it's the ideal. The same is true on a much bigger scale with God. He wants to be in relationship with us, as he has made us as the pinnacle of his creation. Sadly humans very often reject him and refuse to worship him, but as our creator, the one who bought us into the world, I think that he has every right to be intimately interested and concerned about his creation. Of course, this is not to say that he needs us; he can get along just fine without us. But he does want to know us, which is an amazing fact. I'm not going to try and understand why he wants that, but rather rejoice that he does and enjoy the purpose that it gives to life.


As for other intelligent life-forms, I don't know. The Bible talks about God creating the whole universe in Genesis 1. And humans are, as I just said, the pinnacle of that creation, the unique creatures on earth to bear God's image. However, when we try to get the Bible to do science (or conversely, get science to do theology!) we are often walking on thin ice! Personally, I do think that humans are unique in there place in the universe, but if evidence came to light to the contrary I would have to reconsider my opinion. However, we are dealing very much in the hypothetical realm right now, which is a game that can be played for a long time, but is really just idle speculation until there is any hard evidence.

I do not think that my faith would be shattered just because of the discovery of life on other planets. This is largely because my faith rests on the historical person of Jesus, not on some clever scientific proof or anything like that. I know that I keep on coming back to Jesus, but that's because I think that he's so important! In the end, it's our relationship with him that decides our eternal destiny:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. (John 3:36)


As ever, let me know your thoughts!
John
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Old 12th February 2005, 07:01 AM   #15
Sierra
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A couple of quick thoughts

Ok,

First, god would not need the council of Nicea to decide doctrine. To do so is to edit the bible. Its a man written story.

The second is the buffet. You may say that the bible is to be taken in its historical context. That fine for you. But there are just as many people if not more in the world who believe the bible is infallible word-for-word and is to be taken literally.

Both of you feel you are Chirstian. If what you both say is true, one of you is wrong. Its either buffet style or strict contsruction. There is no room for both.

The other problem is the static nature of the bible. In the US the Mormons feel they have another testament. It seems to meet all of the "it came from the sky" requirements of the other two, but everyone thinks they are nuts.

Regardless of how you look at it a large number of Christians are wrong.

Men wrote the bible. Men assembled it. Men decided what it meant and men have translated and passed the story forward for 2000 years. Its a nice story and has some rules that work well if we all want to live together, but its a story.

What if tomorrow a UFO landed and out walked a guy from another galaxy (from a planet with two suns). He walked up to you and wanted to tell you about the twin gods that created the universe in 8 alternate days and their twin sons Simsam and Salesh who died for the sins of all sinners everywhere. He wants to convert you. He says he is commanded to. He has a nice book to show.

Which one of you is wrong? How do you know?

D
 
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