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Old 12th February 2005, 02:58 PM   #16
John
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Re: A couple of quick thoughts

Of course God doesn't need any councils to decide doctrine. But humans do! The council of Nicea went back to look at the Bible and work out what it was actually saying. They weren't editing the Bible - they were reading it! They were trying to work out what the Bible actually says about Jesus.

I believe that the Bible is infallible word-for-word and is to be taken literally. But that doesn't mean that I read it in a wooden and rigid way. It means that I take account of it's historical context. I don't read Psalm 19:4 ("In them [the heavens] he has set a tent for the sun") and think that people then believed that the sun lived in a tent - no, I read it as poetry, describing (with the surrounding verses) how God sustains the earth day-by-day. Countless examples could be taken! I doubt very much if there is anyone who lives by the Old Testament laws that you quoted - unless they're locked up in prison for murdering weekend shoppers.

In the end it's not all about whether I feel I'm a Christian or how I choose to interpret various obscure parts of the Old Testament. It's about living in relationship with Jesus, knowing that I am forgiven and have a secure future in heaven. God doesn't require me to have a perfect understanding of scripture in order to be a Christian (if he did, I'd certainly not stand a chance). Now clearly there are Christians who disagree - but that doesn't mean that they're both right and truth doesn't matter. It usually means that they're both wrong in some ways, but I am sure that they would agree on the essentials: things like Jesus being God, and the only way for our sins to be forgiven, etc.

The heart of the Bible is a historical account of God's actions in history, climaxing in the coming of Jesus. They're not just ideas or doctrines or dreams coming out of nowhere and claiming divine authority - they're records of historical, supernatural events that point us beyond this material universe to a reality beyond. Jesus made some amazing claims - but they would just remain as claims if he had not back them up in his miraculous actions, culminating in him rising from the dead. It is on these historical grounds that we can accept the biblical writings about him; in the same way we can reject other documents as just people's ideas, rather than from God. Which is why I have kept on challenging you to actually read some of the Bible - you will see that it cannot be just man-made ideas, because in such a large document there is so much integrity and such a ring of truth to it. You don't write down a biography of a man's life just a few years after he has died and make it full of lies without anyone at the time raising a fuss. Even Jesus' sharpest critics could not deny that he had done amazing things - it's just they could not stomach the claims that he made alongside those miracles that he was God. No one can deny that Jesus lived 2000 years ago and did some amazing things - but we must all come to some assessment of his claims, about whether they are true or false.

What if God turned up tomorrow and announced that he was here to judge the earth? It would be a bit late to turn back to him then! Which is exactly why we don't play the 'what if...?' game, and instead we rely on the historical documents of the Bible, compiled over 1000 years by about 40 different authors - yet it all holds together with one central message: mankind has rebelled against their creator God, but God wants to offer them a way back to him, so he sends Jesus, his only Son, to die in mankind's place. Try it - read it - tell me I've missed the point of the Bible. But stop deflecting the possibility that the Bible may hold truth by hiding behind hypothetical situations and illogical arguments that don't hold water.

Sorry if that was a bit blunt...I felt that my answering your questions wasn't really getting across my point... Please take me up on my challenge to read some of the Bible - it's time much better spent than discussing ideas with me!
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Old 12th February 2005, 06:11 PM   #17
Sierra
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Re: There is no god

John,

I have read the bible extensively. You would be suprised.

Sure, the poetry aspect exists, but when god commands people to kill those who work on the sabbath, that is not poetic. I also studied the book of Ezekial. When I tried to discuss it with a pastor I knew he wrote it off saying Exekial was nuts.

I think Ezekial describes a flying machine. No one ever wants to discuss it.

I encourage you to believe as you wish. The problem is is that is the first step of a two step problem. The second step is that "believers" insist in ramming down the throats of everyone else.

Religion works its way in to law and that is offensive to me. In the southern US many states will not sanction the sale of alcohol on Sunday for instance. If you are comfortable in your beliefs then I should be able to live next to you, stay drunk all the time, read pornography and buy lottery tickets to the extent I want.

The problem is that the christians all become intent on saving me.

D
 
Old 12th February 2005, 07:08 PM   #18
frigate
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Thumbs up Re: There is no god

Not being a Christian, or anything else for that matter, and not feeling the need to belong to any other "club" that worships according to a given "code of laws" I can sympathise with the views of sierra. The main problem with present day western european Christianity (and north/south american) is that it is based on the Idolatrous Roman Catholic model. Roman Catholicism is a tweaked from of christianity that is fundamentally designed to hold an empire together and religiously unite it in a concentrated effort against it's "infidel" enemies. It is a religion of fear and oppression. The simple minded citizen is not receptive to the educational form of christianity so idolatry was reintroduced to overawe the masses, sound familiar? Anything goes so long as the pope clears it, even brother and sister marriages (it happened a few times among the newly baptised Inca's in Spanish occupied Peru. Recognition of illegitimate children was also sorted out for both the spaniards and Inca nobility.) At first this was the case with the Roman Empire then it was that unquestionable justification for war, and christian crusade among the fueding states of medieval europe. With a simple application (and a cash bung) to the pope, a despot with enough military might could assemble his men and ride or sail off to bring christianity to the uninstructed "barbarians". If this meant slavery, torture, mutilation, rape, looting and razing villages during the "conversion" (conquest), then so be it. Modern day christianity is based on the institutions created during these times, it is still archaic. The bibles translation and interpretation has been severely warped during this period also.

Personally I don't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of god, because I find it strange that the supreme being would send his son in human form to intervene in this world. Christianity evolved from Judaism, and Islam evolved from Christianity. They are all stages of development of the same religion. The idea of god sending a son to earth is more in keeping with early roman/greek polytheistic mythology it is out of character for monotheistic religions.

I believe, as is being popularly vaunted at present though for my own reasons, that Jesus Christ was indeed heir to the throne of the king of Israel and not the son of god. In ancient civilisations the king was the representative of god on earth if not proclaimed as his son by some mysterious decent. This is just another example of this combined with bad translation, which is probably the key to all the mysteries of the bible.

My point is that Christianity is several "clubs" or cults, not a true religion. It has been so much corrupted by time and events it's just not llegitimate any more. There is truth in the bible if you read between the lines and do some serious research as people have, but those who have done this have found that the bible is a seriously questionable work and that it's spectacular and miraculous contents are the most questionable. Those who have not and continue to blindly believe it because they want to and are afraid to question, usually don't have the knowledge to back up what they're saying. They just have faith which usually means that they were indoctrinated from birth or sucked into a cult like the "Church of Jesus Christ" (mormons) by some manipulative individuals. Think about it this way, if you'd been born into another culture then you probably wouldn't be a christian, this means that your culture or other people chose your faith for you.

Also the statistics for 70% christian are somewhat false. Many people in the UK "tick the christian box", but thats as far as their christianity goes.

Just my opinion though...

-edit: don't try to save me.
 
Old 12th February 2005, 07:35 PM   #19
Sierra
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Re: There is no god

Excellent post. You said it better than I could. Christianity can ultimately trace its beginnings to the cults of Isis, Osiris and Dionysus.

The point is that it is a story. A nice story but it has been re-written and "adjusted" time and time again. In reality it is a dangerous message that is a tool of perversion.

If Jesus existed as a historical person what he is and was is long gone. He was not the son of a god. There were countless "messiahs" on records at the same time, all performing miracles and passing out fish.

If god truly existed women would not have been relegated to the role they have in history. Mary Magdalane was probably Jesus's wife and co-ruler. She was unlikely a prostitute, but this message was created by men for the purpose of controlling women.

Again, if Christianity did not grow and creep I would urge people to have their faith. The problem is before long people begin to classify a nation as a "Christian nation" or a "muslim nation" and that is where the trouble begins.

I would question any god for instance who could create a tree but then did not feel complete unless I sat around telling him how great it was.

The new testament tells us that god is a "jealous god". Why? If he is it what is there to be jealous of.

I suggest you read "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy.

The more you understand about the universe the less you will need a god. There is none.

Dave
 
Old 12th February 2005, 10:46 PM   #20
Naomi
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Re: There is no god

Dear Sierra,

You seem to have a very confused idea of what Christianity is all about. Just one little example is you saying the New Testament says God is a jealous God. Those words actually come from the Old Testament. Words can be easily misunderstood out of context. If my husband went off with another woman I would be jealous because I love him and would want him back. That sort of jealousy is not destructive and spiteful but the pain of betrayal and loss.

True biblical Christianity is not a religion it is a way of life that is entered into through faith. it brigns out the best in people not the worst. I can't prove to you that God exists but I have examined the evidence and staked my life on it.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would rather live my life usefully serving others and praising God and die trusting that there is a life with God beyond death than live in the cynicism and hopelessness that is all you have to offer. One day we may all have to meet God - I'd rather be prepared for that moment. If He isn't there then I will have lost nothing.

Naomi
 
Old 13th February 2005, 02:09 AM   #21
frigate
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Thumbs down Re: There is no god

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
You seem to have a very confused idea of what Christianity is all about.
I'd say he was spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
Just one little example is you saying the New Testament says God is a jealous God. Those words actually come from the Old Testament.
The bible is the bible, I hardly think a petty error or typo is relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
Words can be easily misunderstood out of context.
That is the exact problem with the bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
If my husband went off with another woman I would be jealous because I love him and would want him back. That sort of jealousy is not destructive and spiteful but the pain of betrayal and loss.
You're adding the word "jealousy" into a paragraph where it is just doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
True biblical Christianity
Which version of the bible are we talking about here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
...is not a religion it is a way of life that is entered into through faith. it brigns out the best in people not the worst. I can't prove to you that God exists
So now christianity is a "way of life" and not a religion? Exactly what I was saying earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
...but I have examined the evidence and staked my life on it.
So now there is "evidence" that you have "examined"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomi
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would rather live my life usefully serving others and praising God and die trusting that there is a life with God beyond death than live in the cynicism and hopelessness that is all you have to offer. One day we may all have to meet God - I'd rather be prepared for that moment. If He isn't there then I will have lost nothing.

Naomi
So even you doubt? You are simply going through the motions in case it's real?!
 
Old 13th February 2005, 10:23 AM   #22
Dave
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,576
Re: There is no god

We have no problem with this debate about Christianity taking place here, but the tone is rapidly deteriorating into one of personal attack - something which is not helpful to the main purpose of this board which is to support those struggling in their marriages.

Forensic demolition, as attempted in the last post, is rarely useful in any relationship - indeed if the tone adopted by Frigate and Sierra is indicative of the way you have approached your relationships, I cannot be surprised that you have wandered into a place for those whose relationships are not working.

Part of the art of building a relationship is to listen to a whole arguement, not to react to each word and phrase - only in this way does a constructive understanding get built.

Take a leaf from the posts of Kate, Liz, Concerned Reader, and even John and Naomi below, and practice a little wholesome listening, gentleness and self control please.

Dave
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Old 13th February 2005, 03:42 PM   #23
frigate
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Re: There is no god

I fail to see the "personal attack" in what I posted here? You are offended because people have criticised your religion, it's as simple as that.

That was not "forensic demolition", the post I criticised attempted to do just that to sierra's last post. And now you insult the way I have approached my relationships?! That makes your "tone" one of "personal attack" not mine.

This is the typical attitude of the holier than thou christian mentality.

Chao
 
Old 15th February 2005, 07:48 AM   #24
Sierra
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Re: There is no god

Alright everyone.......lets not go overboard.

The problem is that now Dave and Naomi consider themselves good christians.

If Naomi seeks to adopt christianity as her "way of life" thats fine. The problem is that she and those like her soon declare "their way" as "the way" and begin forcing it on everyone.

There is no "evidence" of god. Not one tiny bit. In fact the only thing that suggests his existence at all is a little book. If you want to have "faith" that the happy hunting ground is waiting for you that is your business. But while you plan the reunion with your dead relatives does it not make you wonder why there are so many in this world going straight to hell?

I mean we have jews, muslims, buddists, mormons, pagans, zoroaster(sp?), hindis, not to mention aboriginees and other tribal faiths.

The big argument I get is "do you really think you are right and so many others are wrong?". Actually, yes I do, and so do Dave and Naiomi. Dave and Naomi wake up every day "knowing" that they have discovered the correct path to god.

There will never be a day when they announce "you know what....the muslims are right and I am wrong".

That means that yes, Dave and Naomi believe that 70%+ of the people in the world are wrong and they are right.

Think about this. If Dave and Naomi had been born in Bophal, India, they would not be Christian. They would be whatever their indian parents trained them to be. Religion is a "way of life", its just that it is a man-made concept that is taught.

Show me one piece of evidence of "god" that can be independantly verified and I will begin worshiping immediately.

D
 
Old 16th February 2005, 10:51 AM   #25
Naomi
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Re: There is no god

Dear Sierra,

You are very welcome to your opinions and beliefs. I am not trying to force my beliefs on you or anyone else. You chose to post here and so must expect that some of us will disagree with you. Why else did you post?

As to showing you one piece of evidence that can be independently verified, there is lots of evidence that the bible is one of the most accurately passed down book with loads more early manuscripts than any other ancient book. There are references to Jesus' life by non-Christian contemporary authors in early documents. There is more evidence for his existence than for Julius Caesar. There is also evidence that thousands of people over the years have accepted his teaching and found it gave them a purpose in life. You focus on the thousands who don't know him - just your own personal view of life as no doubt you view mine!

My challenge to you is can you provide evidence that God does not exist?

Naomi
 
Old 16th February 2005, 05:28 PM   #26
Sierra
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Re: There is no god

Naomi,

In order to support the belief in god, you must prove he does exist (proving a positive) instead of me proving he does not exist (proving a negative). A lack of evidence of a negative is not proof of a positive. I would not ask you to prove UFO's don't exist. It would be incumbent on me to prove that they do.

Additionally, the fact that large numbers of people CHOOSE to believe the fallacy of god and feel that it gave them "a purpose in life" is no proof of god. Most everyone in the world at one time believed the the earth was flat too. Widespread belief does not make a thing a fact.

Lastly, for every book that says god exists there is one that says he does not. Check out the gnostic gospels. They have a very different view of who Jesus supposedly was. I suppose they were written by the devil just to trick everyone right?

You are right about one thing. I did choose to post here and I am happy people disagree with me. Most people are still shackled to religion.

In a lively discussion I just want to try to make you think and ask questions. The church would tell you that to question represents "the devil creeping in". Thats crap. If god did exist, to question to reaffirm proper faith would be a good thing.

The church does not want you to question because you might ask a question they can not answer.

You look up a the night sky and see the hand of god. If that is what you need, so be it. I look up at the night sky and see the wonderful random chance that made it all possible. I marvel that I can comprehend it at all.

Beware of people who tell you to believe and have faith (in any situation). That is where the atrocities start.

D
 
Old 17th February 2005, 01:30 AM   #27
Travis
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Re: There is no god

Sierra,

"There is no "evidence" of god. Not one tiny bit. In fact the only thing that suggests his existence at all is a little book."

Can you provide me with conclusive proof that you are conscious..?

Nope.

Its self-evident to you that you are, based on your everyday experience of consciousness. All I can do is judge that you posess it, based on how you appear to behave to me. No amount of science can fully explain consciousness, it can detect certain electrical signals in the brain that we suspect are connected with conscious activity, it can posit numerous models for how the mind works... but this is not 'proof' of consciousness. Belief in it is purely subjective, based on personal experience. (is it not?)

A similar thing applies with God. Very few people turn to Christianity because they have studied the Historicity of the Bible, and high levels of theology. They simply experience God in their life every day, just as you experience consciousness every day. Thats all the evidence that is needed. Neither can be proven scientifically or logically.

Rational Logic has severe limits, and is ultimately self-defeating. It has a very important role to play, but your criticism of faith is false, as all reasoning is ultimately based on faith (whether it be faith in your senses, or faith in your own ability to reason etc). You cannot rationally demonstrate that God exists. You cannot rationally demonstrate that rationality leads to truth.

My point is that you need to strike a balance. Ultimately how is your crusade against religion any more productive than a believers crusade against you..? You operate on blind faith everyday, this is based on your collective experience over the years. Just as a believer operates on the faith that God exists, based on their everyday experience of Him over the years.

It is impossible for us to show who is right... you or them. All you can do is recognise that your beliefs are actually based on exactly the same grounds as theirs.. (...speck...log...eye...??)

Let it be.
 
Old 17th February 2005, 05:26 PM   #28
Sierra
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Re: There is no god

You are mixing apples and oranges. I can prove I am conscious as soon as we define objective criteria against which to test. Even if that becomes a debate I can still prove I EXIST.

You prove to me that god exists and then we can debate whether or not he is conscious (or any other aspect of his nature). Lets find him first.

My beliefs are NOT based on the same grounds. No one has handed me a little book, told me it was written by a god, that I must believe it without question and that if I do I get to go to an imaginary afterlife.

THAT is the non-thinking approach. No one "experiences god everyday". People are taught however that every time an opportunity breaks their way it is proof of "gods" active hand in their life. After all, a near miss in a auto accident is not luck or random chance, christians are taught that god reached out and physically prevented and accident from happening. That becomes the "experiencing god everday" of which you speak.

I, on the other hand, am ok saying "whew, that was close" and moving on with my life. I don't see invisible people and forces protecting me everywhere I go.

My beliefs are based on rational understanding of the world around me. For instance, there is NO WAY the earth flooded to the tops of the mountains. There is no way Jesus (a male) was born from a virgin. There is no way Noah took animals 2x2 and repopulated the world. There is no way that a god created the world in 7 days and there is no way that (as biblical scholars will tell you) the earth is 36,000 years old. There is no mention of dinosaurs and we know they existed (for instance).

These things christians are told to believe are factually untrue and physically impossible. The bible is therefore composed of significant material factual error. Yet it is suposedly written by god.

You may believe if you wish. It does not exist.

The bible is a nice guide for friendly social behavior which is nice to have if we all want to live together. However, to suggest any of it is "real" or "factually accurate" defies logic and even a modestly objective observation of the planet on which we live.

D
 
Old 17th February 2005, 05:40 PM   #29
John
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 6
Re: There is no god

I'm back again having kept my head down for a bit to watch proceedings...

Dave, your 'rational understanding' of the world is based on certain presuppositions that require you to have faith. This is exactly the same kind of faith that I exercise when I choose to believe that there is a God.

You presuppose that there isn't a God
-> therefore Jesus couldn't be born from a virgin
- -> therefore the Bible isn't true
- - -> therefore Christianity isn't true
(?- - - - > therefore there isn't a God)

Your logic is flawless (except perhaps the last step!), but what I am arguing is that your presupposition is unfounded. This is how my thinking works:

I presuppose that there might be a God
-> therefore Jesus could have been born from a virgin
- -> therefore the Bible could be true
- - -> therefore Christianity could be true

Your 'rational understanding' that presupposes that there is no God depends on you having faith that he is not there. Just because you have never experienced him (or have never recognised it when you have) does not necessarily prove that he does not exist.

I think that this is the point that Travis was making...
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Old 17th February 2005, 05:42 PM   #30
Dave
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Re: There is no god

This I have to see - even Descartes failed to prove his famous treatise "Ergo Cogito Sum".

So please Sierra, go ahead and prove you exist - it has defeated the greatest philosophers for the last 5000 years, but if you have the answer I shall be delighted to be the board owner where the truth was finally revealed!!

Dave
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