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Old 12th October 2010, 03:07 PM   #1
Saraflower
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Disagreement on submission in marriage

This post is directed to the mutual submission crowd.

So to make a long story short, I believe in mutual submission. We both used to agree on this equality.

Now my DH and I disagree apparently as I found out this weekend. He thinks he is the spiritual leader. He also thought that he ruled over me, but within hours of our argument over the issue he went back on what he said. I think mostly because he doesn`t want to lose me. But he won`t back down on the fact that he makes the final decision on spiritual matters and that he has final spiritual authoriy in our marriage. To make matters worse, our Pastor will not pastor the women in the church. He believes that men pastor their wives in a sense. My DH and my pastor have spoken behind my back about me not wanting kids and me keeping my last name. When I found out and addressed my Pastor about this, he went straight to my Dh and rebuked him. I do not want to be at a church anymore where my Pastor disregards me as a human being.

My husband believes that we can sweep the issue under the rug so we don`t have to fight about it, but I pointed out that it will come up eventually - like when a major decision needs to be made and he thinks he is the head honcho, or whatever else might arise. Besides, I don`t want to resent him for the rest of my life for believing what he believes. But he genuinely thinks that this is what the Scriptures say about marriage. He apparently wishes it didn`t say that.

I want to feel like an equal partner in my marriage, not like the disobedient little wife. But I can`t imagine not being married to him. I love him. I have to decide what the worst thing is - living with this sexist doctrine over my head for the rest of my life or living without my DH.

I am definitely going to pray about this before making the final decision.

I am pretty sure I need to leave the church...which also makes me wonder how my marriage is going to work. My husband believes and does everything our pastor says!! It is our pastor`s word over mine. He will think I have committed a huge sin. He might even make the final decision for me regarding our marriage. I don`t know how this is going to work!!
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Old 13th October 2010, 08:52 AM   #2
Raymond
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

This is a difficult one Saraflower and there seems to be much confusion over the bible teaching on this. It does seem that your pastor is being heavy handed and I am sure that is not how it is supposed to work.

I know that I cannot be the head of my house unless my wife submits to me. It is not a forced thing. That scripture is given to the wives not the husbands. The main thing we have is to love our wives not boss them around.

Maybe it would be better if you both joined an ordinary church with more balanced teaching?
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Old 13th October 2010, 09:55 AM   #3
chosen
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

I believe that submission is a choice and not something that can, or should be, forced. My marriage is very good and very equal but my husband is my head as Christ is head of the church, the Bible says. He never demands that I do anything(he is a typical Aussie,the most easy going, laid back man ever), it is my choice and takes great strength to submit on the few occasions that it is necessary. Its only at times when we cant agree on something that it comes into force, and that is very rare.
Most women naturally want to get their own way in my observations (including me. lol),but Gods way isnt our way. Husbands should never rule over, or lord it over, their wives, but I do believe that my husband is the spiritual leader of the home.

Having said all that, I find your pastors actions wrong and weird. It seems that he has too much involvement in your lives. If your husband wasnt happy about you not taking his name or not wanting children, then he should have sorted that out before you married. They are big issues, and I am assuming that he did agree on them before he asked you to marry him. It wouldnt occur to me not to have had my husband name, but that was for the two of you to agree on. I cant see that they are the pastors buisiness but of course if your husband told him, them presumably he isnt happy about them himself? Maybe the pastor has too much influence on him?

Our pastor is great and I am sure sees his role as shepherd to all of us and not just the men.

I agree with Raymond that you find another church, if your husband will agree.We go to a NFI church which is really good. My son goes to a vineyard church, also very good.

Last edited by chosen; 13th October 2010 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 13th October 2010, 12:46 PM   #4
Raymond
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

I think the issue here could be control as well coming from the church leadership which is bad news if that is the case.

I would never say to my wife you have to submit to me any more than she would say you have to love me. These verses are addressed to those who should be doing it not to the other to enforce.
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Old 13th October 2010, 03:48 PM   #5
Saraflower
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Thanks so much for responding. While I do not agree with the male headship in marriage (I have been doing an in depth study going back to the original Greek) I do greatly appreciate your perspectives since you are on the outside looking in. I think another church is required for me to be pastored properly. My husband unfortunately would never leave pastor unless a miracle happened. But for myself, I will have to go. My husband actually emailed our pastor yesterday about our marriage issue, and pastor said that he will address it by preaching from Eph. 5 in two Sundays from now.

This is not going to be good. :S

I need a mutual submission relationship in our marriage with God as our spiritual leader.
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Old 13th October 2010, 04:22 PM   #6
chosen
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraflower View Post
Thanks so much for responding. While I do not agree with the male headship in marriage (I have been doing an in depth study going back to the original Greek) I do greatly appreciate your perspectives since you are on the outside looking in. I think another church is required for me to be pastored properly. My husband unfortunately would never leave pastor unless a miracle happened. But for myself, I will have to go. My husband actually emailed our pastor yesterday about our marriage issue, and pastor said that he will address it by preaching from Eph. 5 in two Sundays from now.

This is not going to be good. :S

I need a mutual submission relationship in our marriage with God as our spiritual leader.
I must say I think that your husband is very heavily reliant on this pastor when he needs to be making his own decisions and sorting out his own marriage, I wouldnt want to be at that sermon either.I would be very unhappy if my husband was telling the pastor everything that was going on in my marriage. In fact my husband never tells anyone anything about any issues that may come up for us, and sees them as personal and private. Re the church, you need to pray hard and ask God what HE wants you to do. You have said here what you need, but be open to God and whatever He may say.

I too have done a lot of reading/studying on this subject as you have, and I actually have no problem with my husband being my head as Christ is head of the church. If a husband does this in the right way, then most wives will hopefully respond in the way they need to.

I dont see anywhere that marriage is referred to in the Bible as a 'mutual submission' marriage. Wives are told to submit to their husbands and respect them, and the husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

My husband respects me highly and I respect him highly, but if push comes to shove, I will allow him to lead in obedience to God. I dont do it because it is easy or because I 'want' to, I do it because God has told me to do so. In the 6 years when I was a single parent, after my first marriage broke up, God taught me a lot about Christian marriage and since I married again 5 years ago, He has continued to do so. I am not a person who finds it easy to even think of submitting as I have been very badly hurt in the past, and often want to be in control, BUT it is what I know that God is asking me to do.
Also I am VERY aware that it isnt politically correct these days to believe this but I cant get away from what the Bible says and what I have felt God saying to me. Neither God, nor the Bible, are sexist I believe.

Just my walk with God and what he has taught me. You cant have 2 heads, just as you cant have 2 bosses at work or 2 heads of anything really.One always needs to be accountable in the end for final decisions.

Can I suggest that you join a womens ministry such as Aglow international?I am involved in my local branch of that and they have branches all over the place.I am sure they have a website that you can look up to se if they have one near you.

Last edited by chosen; 13th October 2010 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 13th October 2010, 09:18 PM   #7
Saraflower
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I must say I think that your husband is very heavily reliant on this pastor when he needs to be making his own decisions and sorting out his own marriage, I wouldnt want to be at that sermon either.I would be very unhappy if my husband was telling the pastor everything that was going on in my marriage. In fact my husband never tells anyone anything about any issues that may come up for us, and sees them as personal and private. Re the church, you need to pray hard and ask God what HE wants you to do. You have said here what you need, but be open to God and whatever He may say.

I too have done a lot of reading/studying on this subject as you have, and I actually have no problem with my husband being my head as Christ is head of the church. If a husband does this in the right way, then most wives will hopefully respond in the way they need to.

I dont see anywhere that marriage is referred to in the Bible as a 'mutual submission' marriage. Wives are told to submit to their husbands and respect them, and the husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

My husband respects me highly and I respect him highly, but if push comes to shove, I will allow him to lead in obedience to God. I dont do it because it is easy or because I 'want' to, I do it because God has told me to do so. In the 6 years when I was a single parent, after my first marriage broke up, God taught me a lot about Christian marriage and since I married again 5 years ago, He has continued to do so. I am not a person who finds it easy to even think of submitting as I have been very badly hurt in the past, and often want to be in control, BUT it is what I know that God is asking me to do.
Also I am VERY aware that it isnt politically correct these days to believe this but I cant get away from what the Bible says and what I have felt God saying to me. Neither God, nor the Bible, are sexist I believe.

Just my walk with God and what he has taught me. You cant have 2 heads, just as you cant have 2 bosses at work or 2 heads of anything really.One always needs to be accountable in the end for final decisions.

Can I suggest that you join a womens ministry such as Aglow international?I am involved in my local branch of that and they have branches all over the place.I am sure they have a website that you can look up to se if they have one near you.
It is not about what politically correct, but if you study way back to the Greek, the Bible does not even say that the husband is the head. I think it is easy for most people to accept this marriage model, because virtually every culture has adopted this "man over the woman" mentality for thousands of years.

It would be a wonderful study for anyone to do. Kenneth E. Hagen studied this out as well. It is very encouraging. It's up to you though. I just wanted to say that so everyone knew where I was coming from in this.

I will pray about the church thing as well. I want to leave, but as you pointed out I need to seek God on what He wants to me to do. The flesh is a rough thing to conquer isn't it?

I hope my husband and I can work this out. But he is going to have to change a lot.
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Old 13th October 2010, 10:40 PM   #8
chosen
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

I guess we all need to do what God is telling us, and I know that God has told me that I am to allow my husband to lead as and when necessary.He has even shown me pictures in my mind that illustrate this. He has totally changed how I view Christian marriage and what being a wife means over the last 10 years or so.Its nothing to do with the man being 'over the woman' at all, and the word submission is usually totally misunderstood.

You just cant have 2 heads, it never works. Imagine if everyone in the office at work wanted to be the leader? Imagine if everyone at church wanted be the pastor? Men and women are equally important to God, but we do have different roles and responsibilities otherwise God would have told husbands and wives the same thing and not different things.

I really cant agree that it is easier for most people to accept this marriage model, I think it is far easier not to actually,and to accept the model that society is now portraying of marriage.

Just a question, was your husband 100% happy about you not wanting kids before you married and also not changing your name?If he was then I am not sure what he is trying to do now.

Be prepared that you both may need to change and compromise to make this work.Maybe think about why you wont take his name for example. What is behind that.Why is it such an issue for you.
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Old 14th October 2010, 01:07 PM   #9
Saraflower
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Hi chosen! Thanks for responding. Me keeping my last name was not an issue at all. I just decided to keep it. It was more of an issue for my husband about 6 months ago. There is no Biblical reason for a woman to take her husband`s last name. In fact, in the middle eastern culture, women and men both keep their names. It is such a shame that women get the judgement over this. It is such a small issue that I now refuse to debate about. It seems that the people who disagree make more of an issue about this than the woman who simply decides to keep her name.

The word "submit" in Ephesicans 5 was translated wrong. It literally means, in Greek, "to idenity with". All Christians are to idenitfy with one another. The wife is to identify with the husband. In the pagan Ephesians culture, fathers were allowed to pull their daughters from the marriage when they wanted to. This cultural practise seems to fit right in with this verse. Wives are told to identify with their husbands, not with their birth families. They both belong to one another now that they are married. (Read 1 Cor. 7 - People rarely preach from this one. )

And the original Greek word that was translated to the English word "head" actually means "source". This means that man is the source of woman. She is from the same substance as him. For a marriage to work, both people need to compromise. Both need to submit. Two adults submitted to God and to one another will know what decision to make.

Many pastors know this, but they prefer to stick with their more comfortable marriage role of male headship. Unless a wife is completely indoctrinated with this, she will eventually resent her role as the lesser decision maker. This could take years, when a life changing decision that involves her has to be made, but it is not up to her. This also sometimes forces men into positions of authority within the church and otherwise that they are not called or anointed to do. Very sad.


So, who is the boss in marriage? Jesus!! Amen.
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Old 14th October 2010, 01:08 PM   #10
Raymond
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

I tend to agree with all that Chosen has written although it doesn't really matter what I think as a man in a way as it is a woman's thing.

I did have a discussion with a woman about a year ago on the subject and she was quoting Greek but in the end I felt she missed the point. She was saying the husband is the source not the head whatever that meant. From my memory being the head was linked into christ being the head of the church the body so one cannot get away from the analogy.

The real problem is what people read into submission. We are all to submit to one another in a fellowship. One cannot actually receive from another without submitting. It depends who God is speaking through at the time and it is just as likely to be a woman.

One cannot get away from the marriage pattern though and I don't want to start a fruitless discussion. This is a sore point with many women in our age. I think Chosen's answer is a good one. My marriage also is equal most of the time. There are those occasions though when my wife will submit in order that we can move forward. It's nothing to do with winning an argument. If God said it then one is really submitting to God and He can surely work it out.

I think a problem comes also when the men push it and dominate which in my opinion misses the whole spirit of the thing. Our number one role is to love the wife not dominate her.
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Old 14th October 2010, 02:05 PM   #11
chosen
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Raymond I agree with you about what the Bible says about Christ being head of the church. We are all parts of the body the Bible says, and Christ is the head. If that is true then the same applies to the man as being the head just as Christ is.(Surely the same word is used?) He is head of the family as Christ is head of the church. Also, as you said, the mans is to love his wife and lead in the right way, and we, as wives, are to respect and follow him as our husband.

yes it can be a fruitless discussion, and a sore point for many, especially for those women who have been hurt by men in their past.I struggled with it for years.
I can only say what God has taught me personally, and what I see written.
Joyce Meyer REALLY fought this. I have such a lot of respect for her, she was terribly hurt and sexually abused by her father and there was NO way she was going to let her husband be the leader or to ever submit to him. She wanted control. She battled over things that God was telling her to do in her marriage, and in the way that He wanted her to respect him and allow him to lead, but she got there in the end,and because she is also a strong woman anyway it made it even harder, but now they have an excellent and strong marriage.

Personally I dont know any women who have kept their name. It isnt something that is usually done in the West. For me personally, I am proud to have taken my husbands name, as I am proud of him.I think he would have been sad if I had refused,and I can actually understand why.

Last edited by chosen; 14th October 2010 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 14th October 2010, 06:01 PM   #12
Raymond
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

I have read the book about pennies by Joyce Meyer which outlines her sexual abuse as a child. Just shows you how God can take a broken life and make it flourish.

It takes a lot of skill to put over this submission thing and I think you do it well. My wife battles with this sometimes and tells me she knows she ought to submit to me but finds it hard. All I can do is make it easier by loving her as I should and acting responsibly.

We know that we are equal in Christ from the scripture but to discover God's order in our marriages can only increase the blessing.

I do think Saraflower's situation at church is over the top and as you say the church should not be interfering in peoples marriages. Advice and help yes but not control. In the end we can only live up to the light we have and nothing should be forced in marriage or the church regardless of the husband's or the pastor's views views.
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Old 14th October 2010, 06:42 PM   #13
chosen
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Raymond, I sympathise with your wife. I am a strong person, and have been through a lot, and I too find it hard sometimes to allow my husband to fill his God given position to lead, BUT it is good for me,and God blesses our marriage because of that I am sure.
Also because my husband is so easy going, patient, and laid back, it is easy to get my own way(and his ex did all the time)so it has to be my decision to do this, and my flesh rebels at times!!!!He is a very good leader, but he will never force it, and its my responsibility to give him the space to be the man that God has called him to be.

I agree about Saraflowers church and pastor totally, but the problem is that her husband is getting the pastor involved himself and that isnt helping.
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Old 14th October 2010, 07:20 PM   #14
Raymond
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Beautifully said Chosen. Your responsibility. If a woman doesn't see it there is not much a man can do. My wife does it unto God. I have never asked for it but I know that she does it unto God.
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Old 25th October 2010, 03:54 AM   #15
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Re: Disagreement on submission in marriage

Hi Sara Flower,

I am curious how you got the idea that the Greek word translated 'submission' means to 'identify with.' That would imply that all the Greek translators got it wrong. The way Greek scholars figure out what a word means is that they are supposed to look at all the references in Greek were used in context (or summaries of this type of research) and determine the meaning in context.

That is how a Greek scholar determines the meaning of a word. Do you know how someone with an agenda interprets the Bible? He or she might find the way a word is used in a particular context, and try to argue that applies, arbitrarily, to any use of the word he chooses it to apply to. He may look up some etymological (historical derivation) aspect of the word and try to argue for meaning based on etymology. Or he may just look up the work of someone else who has put forth a convincing argument without doing real Greek scholarship. You have to be careful not to just pick someone's argument about the meaning of a Greek word that you like because it makes the passage mean what you want it to say.

The same Greek word or grammatical form of it is used to tell children to submit to their husbands. Is the Bible just telling children to 'identify with' their parents and that they do not have to submit to them? The Bible tells slaves to obey their masters. Was the role of a slave to ignore his master's wishes, but he was doing a good job as long as he identified with his master? In one of Christ's parable, the servants cook dinner when the master says so.

My point is not that the husband wife relationship is like a relationship between parent and child or like that of a master and slave. My point is that the word translated 'submission' is probably translated pretty well. It has to do with submission.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraflower View Post
It is not about what politically correct, but if you study way back to the Greek, the Bible does not even say that the husband is the head.
It is clear that I Corinthians 11 says this, or the word translated 'head.' Get an interlinear and look it up.

Btw, what you are arguing for is very politically correct. That is one reason to be suspicious of it. Just like the homosexual's arguments about Greek. For 2000 years, everyone knew that the Bible condemned homosexual behavior. In the past few decades, alongside the gay rights movement, some homosexuals have come up with arguments about the Greek to justify their sin. And some people who aren't even homosexuals will accept their arguments because it is politically correct-- because it goes along with the thinking of the world. The world, at least in the US, has this idea of 'sameness' between men and women. The idea of a woman taking joy in raising children instead of having a career is considered archane and weird by a lot of people. (I am not opposed to women doing things to make money, like the noble woman in Proverbs, btw.)

Quote:
I think it is easy for most people to accept this marriage model, because virtually every culture has adopted this "man over the woman" mentality for thousands of years.
Including those who received and wrote down revelation from God, like Moses and Paul. The reason for the man over the woman issue dates back to Adam and Eve.

Quote:
It would be a wonderful study for anyone to do. Kenneth E. Hagen studied this out as well. It is very encouraging. It's up to you though. I just wanted to say that so everyone knew where I was coming from in this.
I would be surprised if Hagin did not believe that submission met submission, though he may not have had a very domineering idea about it.

I am not saying you cannot get some good things from Hagin's writings, but frankly, from what I have read of his works is that he didn't know much about Greek or Hebrew. He would argue off of the turn of phrase a Greek scholar used, rather than the real meanings of Greek words. Hagin is not a reliable source for knowing what Greek words meant. I don't think that was his calling either.

As far as submission goes, I've read that the word shows up in Ephesians 5 in the middle, mediopassive, or reflexive. If I understand right, the idea is to 'submit yourself.' You have to choose to submit. II Peter tells us how Sarah submitted to Abraham, calling him 'lord'-- so clearly this has more to it than just identifying with Abraham. He is the leader.

I don't know the details of you and your husbands interactions. It is possible that he could be dealing with you in a harsh domineering manner. On the other hand, he may be doing right by pointing out that you should submit to him. The Bible gives us Christians the responsibility to goad one another on in the faith, encourage one another to love and to good works, and to rebuke one another if we sin. Paul told Timothy not to let any man despise his youth. If Timothy was to stand up for the legitimacy of his own authority, it may not be wrong for your husband to do so in your marriage. Of course, he should do so in a loving manner.

As far as mutual submission goes, I've heard two feasible interpretations of instructions to all be subject to one another. One is that, while women have a particular responsibility to their husbands, all things should be done with an attitude of mutual submission as well. Another interpretation is that be subject one to another means that everyone has someone to be subject to. The younger saints would submit to the elders of the church. But the elders also have to submit to their bosses, government officials. A Christian governor would also have to be subject to the leaders of his church. This interpretation would not put husbands subject to wives per se. Not that I can say I buy that interpretation necessarily. The one I heard it from was a non-domineering type church leader and owner of his own company.

My advice is to submit to and respect your husband. God know he has put you in a vulnerable position if you do this. It can feel very vulnerable to submit yourself to someone else, especially if the other person realizes you are intentionally doing that. That is one thing, I believe, that makes women 'weaker vessels.' If your husband doesn't honor you as a weaker vessel, it can hinder his prayers. You also have the Lord as your Defender and Protector.

Quote:
I hope my husband and I can work this out. But he is going to have to change a lot.
Maybe so, but God may be using this situation, which is particularly tough for you, to change you.

The way you present your husband's interactions with your pastor seem a bit unhealthy to me, but of course it is only one part of one side of the story.

If your husband leads you, he needs to realize that he is responsible to be led by the Lord in making those final decisions. And the Lord can speak to a man through anyone, including his wife.
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