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Old 16th September 2009, 05:08 PM   #1
surrender2Christ
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Should sex be that important?

I am 24 years old and have been married for 6 years. I was a backslidden teenager when I married my husband. I do not honestly know his spiritual status. I know he believes in God and prays sometimes, but that is about it. Since we have been married, our sex life has been few and far between. When I was pregnant with each of my three daughters it was less than once a month. Recently it has been even less than that. He says he just has no drive, but I have caught him looking at porn and satisfying himself a few years ago. He said he would not do it again, and he did not see it from my point of view before that. Three years later, he has no interest in me whatsoever. I beg for whatever I can get, but even me giving him oral once he made it seem like he was doing me a favor. I have tried whatever I could to get his attention and got nowhere. If he is back into the porn, he covers his tracks well. I just cannot handle the rejection I feel anymore. I just had our third baby two months ago, but my body is not exactly repulsive. I seriously am considering separation with intentions of divorce, but I have nowhere to go and no means to do this. He is a great father and I do not want to take the kids away from him, but I do not want to spend the rest of my life in this rut. And on top of this, he refuses to work a full work week because "his job does not appreciate him when he does", so we are having shutoff notices from almost every utility. I have been trying desperately to find a job with no luck. I have been begging God for an answer and not getting one. I do not know what else to do. any suggestions are appreciated.
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Old 16th September 2009, 08:30 PM   #2
Raymond
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Re: Should sex be that important?

Yes sex is important S2C. If you take that away it's like living with a flatmate. God made that to provide intimacy as well as the obvious procreation.

He obviously does have a sex drive which is apparent through his looking at porn. However the sex drive is diverted when that happens and is fixed on the fantasies he sees. I always call it a mental adultery for want of a better word. Whether he is doing it and covering it up who knows but it will kill a normal sex life. Men have the ability to be sexually involved with this stuff even in a physical way. Many marriages have been broken because of it.

Two things bother me. One you should know for sure that he is a christian if he is one. It would be in his conversation. From out of the heart the mouth speaks is a scripture that comes to mind. I may be wrong but it does bother me. The other thing I wonder is if he is still doing porn? I'd check that out if you can. People can get addicted to this you know and if that is the case it will be a real struggle to get free, but it can be done through christs strength.

You do not know anything for sure but something is not right somewhere. I've never heard of anyone not working full time because they don't feel appreciated. The basic thing is to earn a living surely. Sounds a bit picky forgive me for saying.

Some say porn is a misdirected search for intimacy. Thats putting it very nicely but mental adultery is far from nice. I would look into the porn aspect. It's the only thing that would make sense to me from what you have said apart from something else which I won't mention unless I have to.

I really hope you find out the truth about what is going on here.

Raymond
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Old 17th September 2009, 03:24 PM   #3
surrender2Christ
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Re: Should sex be that important?

Thank you, Raymond. That is exactly what I believe, but he was raised thinking porn is okay, or a natural way too release the urges. He told me it is just easier than the hassle of having sex. I know he has occasionally taken care of himself in the shower without a visual, but how often is a mystery to me. I just don't understand how I can be completely nude and stand in front of him and he just says i am in the way of the tv. I don't necessarily want it for the enjoyment, if nothing more than the connection and intimacy. I honestly don't think he sees me in that way at all. he says "if you need it that bad, just tell me." But I do not want it to be a favor... and when i do make passes, he plays dumb like he didnt realize it, even when really obvious. I feel like I live with a stranger. Every time I try to have a conversation that is deeper than a casual conversation (the kind you have with the mailman), he gets irritated and walks away, or suddenly he is asleep and "did not hear me." he says 100 times a day "i love you", but it means nothing when he acts this way. I asked him "can I ask you something and get a really honest answer" and he said "no". I even printed out a questionnairre that finds out the emotional needs or love language, so we could better understand each other, and suddenly he was too tired and wanted to go to bed. We ended up in a fight with him screaming in my face and sleeping in a different room. I just have no other ideas, if I can't even get him to have a conversation with me. I see things like this now, but I do not want to end up 20 years from now with my kids gone and no longer have a reason to stay, but have wasted 26 years together and miserable. That is probably a bad way to look at it, but I just want out. I do not think he wants me for more than a nanny to his kids. He said that I ruin his day because he comes home trying to be all sweet and I do not return the "affection", but that is only after we had a fight the night before. He was kicking stuff freaking out yesterday because I "stressed him out that bad." I cannot always pretend like nothing happened like he insists on doing. sorry for my venting. I just makes me feel a little better.
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Old 17th September 2009, 06:30 PM   #4
Raymond
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Re: Should sex be that important?

I feel for you S2C. This is no way to be married. You are being robbed. I'd never want sex as a favour either and I'm a man. If it's not mutual there is not the connection that God intended. It makes it only a physical thing when it should be a joining of souls and even spirit not forgetting the fun.

I think it is definitely the porn. If he was raised thinking porn was okay then he has untruths in his head. If one looks at a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery with her in your heart as Jesus said. That is the reason it cuts to the heart of the marriage. One would have thought that being a christian now would have highlighted that. I definitely feel the conviction of the spirit if I stray into that area.

The incidents in the shower may be be an offshoot of the porn where one is still feeding off the images one has taken in and giving it that physical expression. There are some who are able to fantasise greatly in this area, but it is still mental adultery.

Proverbs 5:18 as well as saying let her breasts satisfy you at all times also says be always intoxicated with her love. Definitely about sex. Even the drinking water from your own cistern (v15) and not dispersing your fountain in the streets or abroad speaks of the sex drive I believe. Let them be your own and not for strangers with you it says.

This porn business is far more serious than most give it credit for. 50% of divorces in the States feature porn in some way.

To get off of this stuff he must really want to but I cannot see the signs are there from what you have said. Everything you have said ties up with other similar cases on here. Most of the wives are damaged in their self esteem thinking they are not good enough but that is nothing to do with it. They have been enticed and fallen into a trap. It can happen to any man potentially but as a christian you must be on your guard against things like this.

Before you act I would say that you need to know for sure that it is happening. Ask for Gods help in this and you will get it. When you know for sure you have to confront. If everything fails you may need to (sadly) save yourself from a non functioning marriage.

If you are unable to find the proof I still believe you are living with the effects of what the porn has done but I think you will discover something. Probably on the internet as number one, but you can get it on mobiles these days and even DVD's.

Raymond

Last edited by Raymond; 17th September 2009 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 18th September 2009, 03:48 PM   #5
Susan Strict
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Re: Should sex be that important?

Sex is important for most people, but not for everyone. The act of sex isn't everything that's needed for a stable married relationship. Physical contact, however, I believe to be fundamental to that relationship.

What is most important, I believe, in what you have posted is that porn is NEVER a substitute for sex.

I'll say it again PORN IS NEVER A SUBSTITUTE FOR SEX.

This is SO important. Now, as some here will know from my previous posts, I take issue with many here about erotica - which some would regard as "porn". However, what I have said (and will say over and over again but not in this post) doesn’t apply here. If someone is looking at porn, using it as an outlet for his (or her) urges, and neglecting their spouse, then that is wrong and that person has a fundamental problem.

In fact, I think the problems described in your posts go deeper. The porn is a symptom, not a cause, but if he’s going in that direction – where it becomes a substitute for sex within the marriage - then the downward slide can be hard to reverse.

If he has a problem of the sort you describe, then confronting him with it is not going to be the answer to saving the marriage. It sounds to me like he has, possibly among other problems, the very common male syndrome of not wanting to be criticised in any way and most certainly not wanting to be told he’s wrong. Mostly, men who can’t even be corrected by their wives, feel insecure and probably inadequate in some way – and his withdrawal into himself like this is now making you feel inadequate too. If you can manage it, and it really is going to be hard work, then my suggestion would be that it’s a slow, steady building up of confidence – and love – that is going to be needed. You’re going to have to do it. He won’t. A touch of the hand, more often than you do now. Ask his opinion, even when it’s about things that don’t matter or which you already know the answer. Acknowledge his opinion (“You’re right. Thank you” or, if he’s obviously not right, nothing more than “Do you really think so? OK….”). Avoid the deeper topics for the moment, maybe for a few months at least. Build a friendship, which clearly has been lost, rather than go through the motions of a marriage that needs saving and which will never be saved like this because you’re too far away from each other right now.

I could go on. Does any of that help? At least for a start?

Oh… one more thing. Hold his hand in church. Or, if he doesn’t go to church with you, ask him if he would like to. You’d be amazed what holding hands in the House of God while listening to a good sermon (even on a totally unrelated topic) can do for a relationship. Try it. Please.
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Old 18th September 2009, 08:27 PM   #6
Raymond
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Re: Should sex be that important?

Susan, I think you are underestimating the power of porn a little. Don't you think S2C has been trying? The affect of porn is that it does draw the man into fantasy relationships with images and characters in such a way that he is gradually loosened off from normal relations with his wife, preferring the release without cost that he gets from it, although the real cost is devastating. It is sex withour relationship. This is the way thousands are being affected. Only a man would probably know this of course. If you play with fire you will get burnt. It is not just the eyes it can actually affect a person physically. In the end you cannot have normal marriage relations even if you wanted. In the end it can make your wife pale into insignificance physically but the truth of the matter is that you have sacrificed true intimacy with the one you promised to love and have been blinded to the true gift of a person you have before you.

You indicate more or less that there is good porn and bad porn. In my mind there is only porn. It may start in a little way but it can lead to worse and worse scenarios where fantasies are played out without regard to relationship or marriage. You say it spices up the marriage and say you write erotica but the reality is that it kills sex within the marriage. This comes up time and time again on here so it is nothing new.

Maybe your views are because you have a vested interest in the subject because of your writings, but the truth of the matter is that it tends to kill a marriage. I find it hard how you can mention God and still justify porn. It is well known in christian circles what porn can do to marriages. As a man I know when I am doing right and when I am doing wrong. If I am tempted the temptation may succeed at times but I always know that it is wrong and that I have fallen, not that I watch porn. I am thinking of everyday occurances where most men are tempted in some aspect or other because of the society in which we find ourselves.

The trouble with these books is that you put yourself in the place of the person in the book and before you know it you have been somewhere where you shouldn't have gone without your wife. One look of a wives eyes will tell a man it was wrong even if she didn't know what he had been doing. I could get more specific but I won't.

Raymond
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Old 18th September 2009, 10:15 PM   #7
Susan Strict
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Re: Should sex be that important?

Actually no, Raymond, and I wrote no more than I did because this is a thread where we're trying to help S2C, not start a debate. I've already established that many minds here are closed on the subject and I' m not going to try to change your mind or the mind of anyone else who thinks the same way. That's fine. But there is far more to my reply than that.

What is more important, is that we - you and me and others - also consider other causes and other solutions. We're here to help, I hope. If every answer to a sexual problem is to blame pornography as the one and only cause, and avoiding it as the one and only solution, then we're doing a great disservice to those who need help and advice. There is far more than that to most of the questions asked and the problems experienced, and to attack me as you have just done simply because I propose other solutions that don't depend on the one and only evil being pornography, is hardly constructive help to anyone.





But to answer your specific points, which I hope will not detract from the real and genuine advice I provided in my reply to S2C:

There is not "good porn" and "bad porn". There is porn that degrades and is, in my opinion, completely wrong and should not be part of the Christian way, and there is erotica that celebrates sexuality - but as for S2C's problem, either or both may be part of it and that was the point I was trying to make. Erotica must be kept in perspective, like so many other aspects of life that can become a problem if allowed to take control. The solution if to take back control, and that may be far from easy.

However, at the risk that I am wasting my time, I must say that I do find it extraordinary that time and time again you blame "porn" for issues that clearly have other causes. Excessive porn use in place of a proper marriage relationship is usually a symptom, not a cause, yet may well be a major problem that cannot be easily resolved. Much in the same way as excessive alcohol use is often a symptom and yet can become a major problem in itself.

And no, again you generalise. It is not "well know in Christian circles" that porn can damage a marriage. It is known in some Christian circles that it may be a factor that can cause problems - and it is blamed in other more blinkered Christian, and other, circles for many problems that it has neither caused nor contributed to.

And my views are from years of marriage - 25 years to be precise - during which my husband and I have enjoyed erotica and broadened our relationship, physically and emotionally, without a thought of ever being unfaithful or a moment of intimacy with anyone other than each other. We're as close now as we've ever been. Equally important, or, probably, more important our faith is stronger than ever. It gets better and better. And no, I'm not saying that's because of erotica, or that it's in spite of the erotica. It's neither. Erotica is not intimacy. What it may do, if not handled responsibly, is lead one or both partners away from the proper path. Much like, for example, alcohol - which again many religious groups have campaigned strenuously against, and which again is not a problem used responsibly in moderation.

Also, I much resent your accusation that my comments are because I have a vested interest. More importantly, you're generalising again - and this time in the wrong direction. It's not men. Men tend to look at erotic pictures. Women tend to read books. As far as literature goes - and you brought up the subject, not me - more than 85% of erotic book sales are to women. I know that for a fact, not a guess. I think that says a lot.
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Old 19th September 2009, 08:45 AM   #8
Raymond
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Re: Should sex be that important?

You come in with a bias Susan because you are writing this stuff. You are correct in pointing out that this is a thread to help S2C. But as the problem here is pornography the subject is relevant. Where it is not relevant you will find that it is not mentioned on the other threads.

You are right I am closed to doing pornography or more accurately resist the corrupting affect it can have on one. I do not have a stable past and have some experience of it. I do know that it is destructive and adds nothing to a wholesome marriage experience where sex is in the right place within the relationship i.e centred on your spouse and not all these other characters. That is where the mental adultery comes in which you have spoken against. It is a fact that pornography features in some way in over 50% of divorces in the States. No I certainly do not think it is a solution for anything. I think you are wearing blinkers here and trying to justify what you are doing.

As to erotica Susan. One creates their own in the bedroom with ones spouse privately. Bringing in outside images of others doing things is not helpful and can actually lead to pornography in my opinion, certainly with men.

Talking about symptoms. Yes there probably are symptons for people being on drugs, drink or porn, but part of the battle is to get off of these things in response to the help that one may be getting. None of these things are healthy whatever the reason is that they were taken up.

You talk about excessive porn as if a little was alright. Rather like a little bit of drugtaking is alright forgetting what this could lead to.

It is well known in christian circles what porn is and what it can do. I've never been in a church that didn't realise that. Even Jesus said if you look on a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery with her already in you heart. This happens may times in porn I should think.

I am happy that you are happily married Susan but what you portray on your site isn't helping other marriages whatsoever. I cannot reconcile that stuff with a happy marriage quite honestly. It belongs more in the world of immorality where anything goes.

As for women reading erotica. I cannot judge that. I don't know, but I do know what the dangers are to men in porn and how it can destructively affect their marriages. We see it all the time on here and there is lots of information about it online if you were open to it. That I do know about and that is why I speak up.

Raymond
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Old 21st September 2009, 04:44 AM   #9
surrender2Christ
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Re: Should sex be that important?

Well, got up the courage to ask... for some reason it was very difficult to do. He had been choosing pornography over intimacy with me... for the majority of the marriage. When we had this issue in the past I made it know how much it hurt me and my self esteem, not to mention the problems it caused our relationship. I truly thought he was done with it but it never stopped. He actually had the audacity to ask me to thank him for his honesty, instead of showing any remorse. No apologies, just "now you are going to dwell on it, that is why I dont tell you stuff like this." I will always see this as wrong and cheating in its own way. How can I continue life with him if I feel like he is cheating on me constantly? The only thing worth staying for is my children and their need for their father to be around. Now I am once again broken with no clue as to where to go. This issue cannot be fixed if he does not see it as wrong. He says I love you 100 times a day, but now I wonder if he is trying to convince me or himself of that, or if he just wants to hear it back. It is only by the grace of God that I was able to get out of bed today and go about my day. Now what?
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Old 21st September 2009, 11:43 AM   #10
Raymond
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Re: Should sex be that important?

Hi S2C. Sorry about all that foregoing debate. It just happened somehow.

I am really amazed that your husband says he is a christian and talks the way he does. Does he go to your fellowship? Do you have a pastor who is able to counsel you both on this? Any Godly man would see straight away what is wrong and would tackle him on it. You will know by now how destructive it is. Marriage should be sacrosanct from this stuff.

As to the answer? The easy answer is for you to have joint counseling by a respected pastor in you church where the subject is openly discussed. By the worlds standard he does not see anything wrong (deep down he must know it is wrong) but by christian standards we must see this as an enemy of your marriage which he has succumbed to long before you were married. Maybe it wasn't his fault but I suspect he has a strong inkling of it now. It is unfaithfulness at the very least. What he really needs is the conviction of God to be on him so that he will get no peace until he deals with it and the prayers can be directed in this way. I speak this way if indeed he is a christian. I have no doubt that God will be dealing with him as you and others pray.

If he has inwardly put himself beyond healthy christian influence and continues to prefer this stuff physically over you then the answer may be more drastic. I would really try the solution in the aforementioned paragraph first though. What I mean by drastic is divorce or at least a temporary seperation. I don't use that word lightly but I believe sex is very important and not something that can just be messed up through ordinary adultery and also this mental adultery. I have seen cases on here where the other person stayed and continued in a sexless marriage and I wouldn't wish that on you. Plain and simple the pornography is an invasion of your marriage, a fifth column within so to speak. If he refuses to see it as wrong and consequently does not seek healing what are the alternatives? The thought of drastic action may be a wake up call to him perhaps?

Having given this advice the answer of course is between you and God. You are the one in the situation and you are the one that needs the answers, so you have to weigh what I and others say on this forum. I would seek help on your own initially, with a respected married woman possibly, that you can be frank with. The more you get God's mind on it the more you will know what to do.

In the meantime I would encourage the positive aspects that you do have in your marriage while seeking the answer to this quite serious problem in my view.

Raymond
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