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Old 24th July 2011, 08:24 PM   #16
1aokgal
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Re: Help needed re friend

Chosen..

There is that label again from you, "materialiatic" to describe a woman who strives for job security. We compare two different social systems and vast differences in culteral norms. I agree women here are ambitious. They have to be motivated to work demanding jobs and invest in pricey education programs to do them. A woman advances in the workplace to bring support to the household. Her income is figured into the qualifying for a home loan and the repayment of the debt. There is a hefty down payment required. A decent home generally requires two substantial incomes to repay a mortgage debt. My daughter is an exception to the rule she owns her condo but moonlights some extra income from fill-in work. Nothing materialistic about surviving in the workplace and the desire to live in a decent home. That is not about getting rich but keeping a roof overhead.

It is true the age for marriage has gone up in our countries. Many young people graduate to owe a huge debt in student loans to attend universities for work in todays competitive technological society. They will spend some years working and paying on those debts before marriage or a home purchase. That is better for adults to gain experience and understanding of the responsibility of marriage. There used to be too many young, ill advised marriages in the years before.

Last edited by 1aokgal; 24th July 2011 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 25th July 2011, 03:46 AM   #17
chosen
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Re: Help needed re friend

I live in a materialistic area and I see it all the time, Many of the women who I know who worked or have worked, were alreadly quite well off, and their husbands had well paid jobs. They didnt need to work while they had children, they choose to. I know that many do need to bring in an income, the poorer in our society, but many only do so only to have lots of luxuries. What is more important, being there for our children or luxuries that we dont need?
We have that choice. I wanted to be there for my kids. I didnt have them to send them to others to look after.MY daughter is a nursery nurse in a childrens nursery. Some of those poor little kids, from babies, spend 10-11 hours a day there. Its so sad.

It sad that even though the age of marriage has gone up, the divorce rate has also gone up. The main reason why the age of marriage has gone up isnt because peope are delaying it because of loans, its because most couples live together for several years before they marry. They still buy homes and have that live in relationship, they just dont get married. Most marriages here involve a couple who have alrady been living together for a long time. Many women are putting off having childen because of their careers, then they are unable to conceive and have to resort to IVF for any hope to have children. Many left it too late and cant have children anyway.I see so many women who look barely younger than me, and that have small kids. I assume they are the gramdmother and it turns out they are the mother. Its weird.

MY daughter has a large loan from uni(she left last year), but here you only pay back a certain percentage of your wages when you earn more than a certain amount. She is marrying next April and still has a loan. She is 30 and they wont live together, so hasnt got years to wait.

Last edited by chosen; 25th July 2011 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 25th July 2011, 06:20 PM   #18
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Re: Help needed re friend

Chosen..

You seem to brand every woman "materialistic" who works for a living because they have a husband who works as well? You don't know their budget, responsibilities, or what goals this family sets for their funds. So if a woman doesn't choose your lifestyle, which was to depend on your husbands' income, they are materialistic? Your choice was right for you, not for everyone.

Unfortunately, not every woman has the option to remain at home as homemaker. That husbands' sole income won't support the home purchase or carry the overhead. Most have to work to make ends meet to maintain the family. Many women don't want to stay home and desire to explore their own talents and abilities when kids are in school. There is time they can upgrade their skills or return to school.

Certainly women who have some years in a workplace aren't necessarily thrown into povety by a divorce. A woman in that situation has to make lifestyle changes but at least they aren't in homeless shelters.

A woman who doesn't develop her own life may get a huge shock when a husband finds her uninteresting and chooses to have a midlife crisis that ends a marriage. So many 50+ women get out there with no job skills or resume and find they can't survive.

Later marriages as today should be the norm. Beats divorce and mixed up kids in the middle of too young marriages. Like you, I don't approve of the living together in "test" marriages. They even have 2/3 kids before they marry! Marriage keeps getting bad publicity but as you said as well, a decent marriage is a blessing.
I beleive the words," Not to be entered into lightly, ill advisably..." which is part of marital ceremony is so well said.

On the "mummy plan, " I find it hard to understand your dogmatic view on the homemaker vs. working mother. Why do you feel that homemaking should be every womans' choice?

Last edited by 1aokgal; 25th July 2011 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 25th July 2011, 06:41 PM   #19
Forever
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Re: Help needed re friend

Chosen,
Can you please email me? I believe you and Raymond have my address.
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Old 25th July 2011, 07:45 PM   #20
chosen
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Re: Help needed re friend

will do forever
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Old 26th July 2011, 02:20 AM   #21
abely
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Re: Help needed re friend

I think its not just women. The whole world is getting so materialistic. And its not just effecting marriage only but all family... kids-parents relationship.. the whole society.

Of course there is those who work so hard to actually survive and live decently. But its not about living and raising a family anymore its all about getting the money for the money itself and spending and living in luxury. Which is very sad to see...

For women working... I believe women shouldn't work for money ie income unless of course the situation needs this income. Women are the foundation of the society and if they had the time to work then should work to better the society and its future rather than just to gain extra few luxuries.

People looked down at women who choose to be at home looking after their kids as they didn't increase their knowledge and usually not educated and it was always put as somehow has no value and oppressed... But that is just some old view that's for sure outdated. There is more women graduating than men. And so many woman that even still choose to not work and stay home doing courses and joining charities and doing so much more than those who are working 9-5 and on top they producing a new generation that was raised with love first...
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Old 26th July 2011, 04:18 AM   #22
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Re: Help needed re friend

Your remarks seem directed at the very rich who make money for moneys' sake. I never met one of them! I appreciate you may feel there is matrerialism in some. What is your definition of materialism? Most people work hard and know it is important to make a life plan for themselves and the family. A wifes' income assures an emergency fund and helps meet goals of the family. After the children are in school she is free to work or job train.

Most women work to survive. They don't work to live in luxery. Most women DON'T earn enough income to live in luxery anyway. They pay rent or home mortgage and buy groceries. In the US men don't earn enough to maintain a household alone, unless they are very high earners. Most families today struggle just to pay bills and survive. I do think that Americans work hard to understand financial principles as they sign up in large numbers for retirement planning and family goals classes.

Both workers pay into a retirement fund called Social Security and have the necessity to save above that money for retirement. No one can live in todays' econemy on a social Security income at 65. So unless there is savings for later years, one can find themselves homeless or barely subsist. In order to live comfortably in retirement one will need to save 70% of their pre-reirement income. Will your expenses change then? If you struggle now with salary, how will you live without that salary?

I am sure the thought of older years is an unpopular idea, but we all get old. When a worker retires there is barely enough income to live in a rented room or feed himself.

My husband had Cancer 2010, and could not work. His disability income (which many don't even have, because they refuse to pay into that system) was 1/5 of his income monthly. We used years worth of savings and took another $20,000 from a 401K plan (retirement income) to live and pay off MED bills. This savings kept us for 2010 because the house has no mortgage, it is clear. We don't live lavish or have car payments or buy often on credit, so we had the maintenance and upkeep of the home and few bills. It was ideal until illness struck this family.

I bought an insurance policy on him years ago and pay monthly on that plan. That was a sound financial decision I made before and then he became ill. He could still have a relapse with Cancer. That insurance policy assures a decent life for me with his benefits, if something happens to him. There are some who think that life insurance is not important. Most will wake up to that wise move when it is too late.

If this house had a loan payment, the year would have been even tougher. Savings meant we did not have to worry. My income and investments meant the house was paid for because I worked all those years. My work put that savings in the bank. Now my husband is cancer free and works again. He has 10 years to work before he retires. The savings/retirement funds need to be replaced so we don't end up selling a home later to live decently. No one can live solely on Social Security income.

I have a home business and have always worked, so we had savings from my income. I doubt that posters who value a sole income, who have no savings, will be prepared for the day they must retire or have an emergency situation. That day comes to all. I worked as a Insurance Broker/financial planner for some years so I understand the principles of money. We need to sacrifice some of today for tomorrow.

That is why two incomes are a decision by many because they live in reality and not in a pink cloud.

Last edited by 1aokgal; 26th July 2011 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 26th July 2011, 07:46 AM   #23
chosen
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Re: Help needed re friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by abely View Post
I think its not just women. The whole world is getting so materialistic. And its not just effecting marriage only but all family... kids-parents relationship.. the whole society.

Of course there is those who work so hard to actually survive and live decently. But its not about living and raising a family anymore its all about getting the money for the money itself and spending and living in luxury. Which is very sad to see...

For women working... I believe women shouldn't work for money ie income unless of course the situation needs this income. Women are the foundation of the society and if they had the time to work then should work to better the society and its future rather than just to gain extra few luxuries.

People looked down at women who choose to be at home looking after their kids as they didn't increase their knowledge and usually not educated and it was always put as somehow has no value and oppressed... But that is just some old view that's for sure outdated. There is more women graduating than men. And so many woman that even still choose to not work and stay home doing courses and joining charities and doing so much more than those who are working 9-5 and on top they producing a new generation that was raised with love first...
I agree totally. Also the idea that you dont learn anthing bringing up a family and being a wife and mum is mad. I learnt SO much is those years and I valued so much being there 100% for my children and husband. It was my first focus and ministry always.As mothers have gone out to work more and more, the family has broken up, divorce has risen, and people have become more and more selfish and concerned with me me me, and what I can have and what I can get.
Materialism is at incredible levels and people arent content with what they have anymore, and just want more and more things. Far from the idea of mums being there for their kids as being out dated, it is so important for the children, the family, and society as a whole. What children really want and need isnt things and money but their parents time and attention, and many dont get that. Hense the new idea that 'quality time' is the main thing as if spending an hour or two a day with your children is better then being there for them 24 hours a day. Its easy to have someone else look after them for 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 hours, but very challenging to be a 24 hour a day mum. The hardest but most rewarding and important job there is in my opinion.
I just wanted to reply to your post abely.Thanks.

Last edited by chosen; 26th July 2011 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 26th July 2011, 09:26 AM   #24
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Re: Help needed re friend

hello everyone

i've been reading this discussion, and many valid points have been put forward. In my opinion i don't see that there's one hard and fast approach to this.

However, I know from my own experience, having stayed at home to be with my boys over the years i have felt that this was frowned upon by some. I sometimes felt that i wasn't contributing enough despite putting 100% effort, energy and love in to raising my boys, taking care of my h and looking after our home. It is no easy task, as chosen says, it's more than a full time job.

I did have a part-time job, and have also worked full time during this time. The time i spent working full time was in fact easier in terms of overall workload and responsibility. The part time job i had meant that i still shouldered the majority if not all the responsibility for the kids and the home. My first h was resentful towards me because i'd stayed at home when the boys were very little and then worked pt, and when we separated and divorced he wanted financial recompense as he put it for the years i'd been at home with the boys. Needless to say his request for 'financial recompense' didn't get further than his solicitors office. In fact my solicitor strongly advised me to put forward a case for that time to be compensated to me in some way because as she put it i had sacrificed those years, and neglected building a career for myself for the sake of the children. I didn't see it like that.

When my now grown up sons talk about their childhood they always say that they loved that I was at home with them, they looked forward to me picking them up at the end of the school day, (when i worked pt i was finished in time to collect them from school), and say they wouldn't have liked it if they were cared for by someone else if I was working full time. They both say that they just wanted to be with mum. I have stayed at home with my little one who is now at school, and have completed two college courses during this time. My h has never put pressure on me to work, he has always referred to me as 'working' because of what i do at home, and has always appreciated the effort and energy involved in caring for the boys and our home. I guess i'm lucky.

We don't have a lot, and think long and hard before spending money on luxuries. Most if not all of our spare money is spent on the boys and doing nice things together as a family. But most of what we do is free or costs very little; a bbq at home in the garden or we pack up a picnic and find somewhere lovely...our little man absolutely loves to do this and is always really excited! What i'm trying to say is you don't need to spend a lot of money to enjoy happy times, it's making the most out of what you do have.

Maybe we should all look to ourselves to find what we really do value. I have done this recently over the last few months. It is sobering. I reckon that most of us, if not all of us take the most important things for granted at some time and it's only when we have a wake up call, when we're knocked hard by something really dreadful do we take a step back and look at ourselves and our lives. Or maybe it's just a case of me getting older, and of course, wiser!

Sy
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Old 26th July 2011, 10:49 AM   #25
chosen
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Re: Help needed re friend

hbl Yes my children are the same in that they appreciated me being there for them. My first husband worked shifts as well, so he often worked weekends and evenings which made it harder. Like you, when I did work some part time jobs, I made sure that it was either when they were at school or where I could take them with me if they werent well, or on school holidays. Our money as well, went on the childrens needs, and believe me they are happy with the small things especially when they are pre-teen.
When I was a small child my parents had little money, but I had such a happy childhood and have so many lovely memories. No mums worked then where I lived. MY mum went to work part time when I was 11 and my brother was 13, and we were old enough to be alone for half a day in the holidays.

No one says on their death bed "I wish I had spent more time at work, or studying, or trying to climb the career ladder", they say "I wish I has spent more time with my children/family" They grow up so fast and then we can have more time to do other things if we want to.
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Old 26th July 2011, 02:24 PM   #26
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Re: Help needed re friend

No its not directed at just who are already rich and make money for money’s sake only. its directed at the rich and those who are not so rich but still just work to buy a designer bag.. and have these insane plastic surgeries, to go out all the time ...etc... there is so many of them from many different classes...

Of course there is those who work hard husband and wife to provide a better life for their family, as love just by itself is not going to put a roof on your head or pay the medical bills. And I think everyone here agrees on that.

We are discussing the ones on the middle who can live without wife working, or those who might struggle a little bit but still, no they want the “more” instead of the family and tranquillity.
And before anyone say it as my finance was brought in another discussion... i am only 26 i have managed to do so well and enjoy abundance of luxuries and people do look at me as the “rich one” but am not any different and I actually do sit down and think as who am I to say... oh these people shouldn’t bother about these luxuries when i am enjoying them... But when I look around and speak to the young kids that we meet in our charity, they all talk about money, they are not from a very poor background at all but still that’s all they care about, and its embedded in our society so badly... and you can see it everywhere... People can enjoy luxuries if they can, but not aspire to them... and who can manage that to me is the “Rich”...

Its not just women its men too, kids and adults, however my concern is mothers and women in general, because I really believe they have they have the biggest role in building our society...
I can deal with seeing men and young people talking about money ie just wanting money and luxuries but when its mothers and within the family its heart breaking... yes life is hard, and national insurance/social Security need to be paid as well as the rent and food...etc... but for example the biggest shocking thing that I still can’t get over is parents taking rent from their kids to live in their own family’s house.. I see this so killing to the principle of family, yes kids MUST help out but not like this... husband and wife paying each a half on the rent even though they afford enough to save and go on holidays... just in case if marriage broke??? And there are much more worse examples... the family unit in our time is just destroyed...

I remember my father when we were young taking us out even that he wasn’t doing so well, and giving us few pennies to give to the poor and teaching us to give, as yes money gives us comfortable life and we have to work hard for it, but thats not just it... even when I started my first job before getting married, I asked him if I can help with the rent he didn’t speak to me for three days... because he wanted to make sure that I see my family’s house as the place of comfort and love, not as just the “cheapest option”... I still ended up helping indirectly by buying things for the house filling my dads car with gas buying food and looking after all my little brother’s needs... which made our family even stronger and love all around even more...

But anyway that is my view... people need to think about their priorities...
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Old 26th July 2011, 04:04 PM   #27
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Re: Help needed re friend

Nowhere in this discussion or posts has this idea been suggested.

" Also the idea that you dont learn anthing bringing up a family and being a wife and mum is mad. I learnt SO much is those years "....by Chosen.

Most families live a combination of homemaker when kids are young and return to the workforce later. I agree, Abely, that kids emulate these rockers with mansions, luxery cars and think they can attain that lifestyle without work or skills. They think that is how they should live. It also is one of the keys to lost youth out of control who will do anything for these possessions. The young stars with flashy lives are the heros that promote the image for living for kids today. Those are the ones also in rehab or in trouble.

Kids don't respect hard working parents who provide a modest but decent home and the young covet the excesses of an unrealistic life which they will never attain by legitimate means.
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Old 26th July 2011, 05:00 PM   #28
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Re: Help needed re friend

I think that kids do deeply respect hardworking parents who provide a decent and happy but modest home,. Mine certianly have as have Sally's parents.
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Old 27th July 2011, 03:07 AM   #29
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Re: Help needed re friend

Abely, there are nice kids out there but it is distressing to see the many kids who are busy figuring out how they can get more, by doing less. The work ethic is not there for many.

My stepfather worked two jobs for years and my mother took part time work later so they could buy a family home so the kids could have a room, yard and nice neighborhood. Before that we lived in a cheap rental and shared a room. By then I was 13. That was a sacrifice for them and times were tight with our family. Attitudes of kids then were different than we see today. We all did work around the
house and earned some pocket money for things we did. Today kids think they are entitled.

Last edited by 1aokgal; 27th July 2011 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 27th July 2011, 08:46 AM   #30
abely
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Re: Help needed re friend

Sure I agree. Kids attitude today is totally messed up. But we can't just blame them. I blame parents too. That's why we have god knows how many TV programs teaching parents how to raise their kids.

As time pass, We moved forward in every aspect of our life except the family aspect. Ofcourse there are many who enjoy a lovely family life but sadly not the majority.
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